Author Topic: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston  (Read 19701 times)

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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2009, 06:23:27 PM »
I got lucky and snagged a 4 sets of rings for those pistons off e-bay just a few minutes ago.
66mm......763cc's.....

God I hope I can make this work!
Hopefully I can have it not leak oil.

Now off to source some new liners....
The 750 sleeves I have are not going to be able to do it.
Mabey a set of kz650 liners... dunno....have to look into CB900 DOHC liners.
I bet over at satanic mechanic they got the answer i'm looking for.


off to search...


l8r
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Offline fang

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2009, 08:36:34 PM »
I am glad someone else is excited about the GPZ pistons as high-compression, big-bore piston options.  This is a great place to be exploring!
-steve
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2009, 05:47:46 AM »
The ONE drawback I have found in searches in the past... is the rings availability.
I had scoured around for KZ650 rings..... what i found made buying a 836 kit look cheap.
The pistons are easily had....but the rings, thats a whole 'nother story.


Then I see the offer for those GPZ750 pistons, and E-bay had a NOS set of KZ750rings....
I couldn't pass it up by any means.(KZ750 and GPZ750 2 valve per cylinder pistons use the same rings I have read... hope it's true!)


I doubt I am the first to try KZ/GPZ 750 pistons as a overbore in a CB.
Dunna matter... if it works in my cb650, I would be willing to bet it would work in a '77/'78 cb750 head as well....





Thnx again!!!



l8r
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Offline fang

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2009, 07:12:59 AM »
I you are having trouble looking for rings, CLICK OVER TO THIS THREAD over at the Satanic Mechanic.  There also is THIS PARALLELED thread about these GPZ pistons over there as well.  Soos, I know you already know all this.  =)
Peace and grease,
-steve
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2009, 09:06:09 AM »
From what I have read lately about the c b3560 pistons they made a (with mods to the pistons) a great high compression overbore for the cb750.
These should do fine I am thinking.
:)

The only serious hurdle I think I will have is the sealing ability of the motor.
I'm seriously thinking I will need to glue the head gasket down to avoid leaks... I hate to think of doing this as tear down would be a PITA.
CB750 motors would have a LOT LESS problems as their spacing of the cylinders are further apart.
With a cb650... I'm thinking it's going to be a challenge.


Cometic is the gasket option I am thinking. Might have to get 2 gaskets... one to test with, and one for final installation.



Oh I got a set of rings on the way....... :)  Yeah I found those threads, among others on other sites referring to the GPZ/KZ750 pistons.
A lot of started and never finished threads, and one or 2 successes, all on KZ650's using GPZ750 pistons.


Antsy to get measuring and doublechecking....
:)





l8r






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Offline fang

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2009, 11:39:57 AM »
It is easy to find copper head gaskets.  The people who cut them can do it in any thickness you would like....
Also I like to use a copper head gasket sealant like COPPER COTE.


peace and grease,
-steve
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2009, 01:57:37 PM »
Thats a good idea as well!



In fact shortly after posting that last post in this thread my wife came in with the pistons you sent me!

I am not suprised completely, but they match the 65mm(836 kit pistons) I have almost perfectly as far as the total height from the wrist pin to the top of the dome.
And BTW, those Hi-comp. 836 pistons I have were in a cb750 with a '74 motor.

Pictures will be coming soon....



But anyways, I think I have hi-jacked your thread WAY to much already......
I'll start a new one on these pistons as a overbore option....




l8r
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Offline fang

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2009, 02:58:51 PM »
Soos, 
No problems!  you certainly are NOT hijacking the thread.  You are fulfilling it by running with my idea about the GPZ pistons.

Hey, did you possibly get 5 wrist pins?  Or did you get the four?  I am glad the package arrived so quickly.  Thanks for the little bit of extra dough!  That was cool of you.

I have been working hard for the last 6-7 hours porting an RD350.  My arms ache and my clothes are coverd with metal shavings.  Almost done now.  Most of the work was not actually porting, rather opening up the intake so a larger, Banshee reed box would fit in there.  Yeah, my arms are tired!
-fang
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2009, 03:12:06 PM »
Hey, did you possibly get 5 wrist pins?  Or did you get the four?  I am glad the package arrived so quickly.  Thanks for the little bit of extra dough!  That was cool of you.


Actually I only found 2 of them in there. No biggie, as I intended on getting new pins and circlips anyways.

I'm not too hot at posting pics, so one per post to help tell what is what.

hereis a pic of my 836 pistons on both sides of one of these GPZ pistons for comparison.

-=≡ Soos ≡=-
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2009, 03:13:33 PM »
here is a pic of 2 of the GPZ pistons next to a cb650 stocker...
can't read it, but the rule there is showing about 5.5mm shorter....
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
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Offline fang

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2009, 03:14:28 PM »
Nice!
Now, just to be clear, we are talking about 836 pistons for a CB650?  Or are these for a CB750?
-steve
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2009, 03:15:40 PM »
here is a pic of my 65mm pistons on each side of a stocker 750 piston, you might not be able to see it either, but there is approximately 6.5mm height difference.
And these 65mm pistons were in a K head cb750 ('74)bike!!
The compression must have been outrageous!!



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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2009, 03:17:08 PM »
Nice!
Now, just to be clear, we are talking about 836 pistons for a CB650?  Or are these for a CB750?
-steve


Those 836 pistons are 65mm, and came out of a '74 cb750.
It was LOADED with hi-performance stuff.
REALLY hot cam with one lobe worn down like 1/8 inch(went to terry in aussie), the pistons I kept, and had magnesium keepers and spring retainers....those went to terry as well....



Edited 'cause I can't spell worth a darn.



l8r
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 03:21:20 PM by Soos »
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2009, 03:18:17 PM »
here is a pic of the GPZ pistons on each side of the stocker cb750 pistons...

Again 6.5mm(approx.) difference.




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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2009, 03:19:22 PM »
I fully intend on using these 66mm pistons in my cb650 project.

That will take that bugger out to... 763cc or so.
Talk about a sleeper...... :)






l8r
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Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
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Offline fang

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2009, 03:21:58 PM »
If they work it will be awesome because there is a big-bore kit for these GPZ Kawi bikes and THOSE pistons would make for around 950cc-1000cc in a CB750
-steve
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2009, 03:26:18 PM »
I cannot see why they wouldn't.

The deck height is too tall, but thats a small effort there, I think modifying the valve pockets is a bit trickier.


The 836 pistons I have worked with one of the earlier heads(can't imaging the CR there, but slky high?) these would do well also. even better in a F style head IMO.(slightly lower CR.)




l8r
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"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2009, 08:44:39 PM »
Yeah mate, it'll be interesting to see if you can squeeze in some fatter liners, lord knows it's difficult enough to bore out CB750 cylinder blocks then weld up the holes in the air gaps to make 'em fit and not leak oil, but at least you can buy stronger rods and studs "off the shelf", what are you gonna do to combat these problems with your engine? If it all gets too hard, I've got a set of the high dome 61mm CB350 pistons I'd trade you for those big slugs? Not trying to put you off of course, whatever you do, have fun!Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2009, 10:55:20 PM »
Thnx, but no thnx terry.


Good overbore 61mm slugs can be found, my 'fav happens to be a 2 year run of pistons only.
The '77/'78 F pistons with the higher dome is a REALLY nice overbore for the cb650...
Got a set in my '79cb650!
Luvin 'em every time I ride!
They are fairly easily modified, and fairly cheap. Even when you count in the $$ of rings.
Not only that, but the stock head gasket will accommodate the 61mm pistons.
A serious boon for those wanting a overbore on the cheap.
 
Anyone wanting a low compression cb650 with a 61mm overbore(only 1.2mm bigger than stock) would be looking at the stocker K '69-76 cb750 pistons.
Turbo comes to mind for that application.
You could easily machine them easily to get 8:1 or lower I think.


64mm(810 kit for the cb750) pistons are a option as well.
Paulages proved that with his 550/650 hybrid 718cc bike.


Not that any of those are a drop in unfortunately, they all require some extent of machining to make them work.


As far as larger liners, I could easily drop in 750 liners(or DOHC 750 liners) and get up to 65mm, but unfortunately I am going to have to source something a tad bigger for these 66mm pistons.


Untested waters are interesting to me, always have been.
The more the challenge it seems the more I am drawn to try.(even if it's pointless... me putting on a dyna2000 on a cb650 proves that point pretty well....  ::))


And as far as larger studs...
I am not sure what I am going to do.
I COULD go with studs, sounds tempting, until I mocked up 2 studs in a "mock up" motor I have in my spare parts project '82 cb650 frame, and tried to remove the head.
Ran into a snag there.
The head will no longer come off with the motor in frame using studs.
 :'(

I have been tempted to helicoil the block and run with stocker bolts and go with 10-15lbs more torque holding it all down....
But with a extra 130+cc's AND higher compression.... I really think I need a HD set of bolts, and tap the block to accept the new bigger threads.(mabey helicoil them as well!)
Unfortunately my work does little threading, and we are limited to single point cutters.
No tooling to roll threads, so I am forced to buy them from someplace that either happens to carry the threads, and lengths of bolts I want, or have them custom made.

So far I have not found any place that sells bolts the exact lengths I need.
I found some studs that are close enough I could trim them to the lengths I need.
But I would like to avoid studs, being able to take the head off with the motor in the frame is REALLY NICE!!! ;D
I am leaning towards having them custom made, as I will then be able to choose the material used.
However, $$ quoted to me so far has run about $300+ for a full set....
But mind you thats bolts made of Inconel718 with rolled threads to my specs.

The loss of strength in single point cutting them makes me want to do it myself....
At least I have access to material at a good cost if I go that way.
No one said power was cheap....
But I got time.(more so than money)
I might just end up buying the tooling to roll the threads I want and going that way.
Haven't looked into that yet, but will soon!




l8r
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2009, 03:58:08 AM »
No worries mate, I'm looking forward to seeing how the mods work out, what rods are you gonna use? Cheers, Terry.  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2009, 04:47:43 AM »
hahahah.... rods.


I have no choice. I'm pretty much stuck with stockers.
I have a set I plan on have shot peened though.

Other than that... I'm pretty much at a loss.



l8r
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2009, 05:38:23 AM »
Well.....

Thnx for picking my brain there Terry!

It jarred a thought about the 550 rod I have...

Went out and re-measured it and the crank end of the rods are the same diameter, and well as the piston bore end.
The main diff. is they are 5mm shorter!

Dropping the CR of these pistons is something I would have to do anyways....
(I know, I know.... it's the easy way out)


But I came across this post:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=10764.new#new

A set of carillo rods for the 550???

Deck height of these GPZ750 pistons is only 2mm taller than the cb650 stockers...
The skirt of the GPZ750 pistons are about 2-3mm shorter than the cb650's are anyway, so if any mods on that end were needed it would be minimal.



With the added diameter, and a minimal amount of combustion chamber work to the head, I think a more "normal" CR could be achieved.


Not so much after a sky high CR, mainly after a big bore.




Hrmm... off to search out those carillos!
And think a bit....
Can anyone tell me of any inherent problems with doing this?



l8r
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
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"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2009, 07:32:11 AM »
http://www.carrilloind.com/Portals/1/Documents/Making%20the%20Connection.pdf
From this PDF file, i found a LOT of bio's on the major players in the powersports that make rods...
Came across Falicon's web site(and others) and came across a rod that might do me, and it's not too expensive(as far as rods go).
The GSX-R1000 '05-08 rod.

109mm center to center 15mm bushing, and 38mm big end.
I'm not sure if I misread/misunderstood their measurements, so I will have to contact them to make sure.
Thats for their -2mm "stroker" rods. But if it fits.... I'm in NO position to argue!
somewhere in the neighborthood of $250 i think... mabey $280'ish?
Can't remember exactly... a lot of searches tonight....

cb650 rods are 111 center to center, 15mm pin bore, and 38mm big end(without bearing, with bearing 35mm)

Hey 2mm drop for the piston(about the deckheight difference between the cb650 and the GPZ740 pistons), AND they are a AVAILABLE rod? For a reasonable price?
I gotta scrimp and save....

http://www.rcsperformanceonline.com/Gsxr_1000_Piston_Kits_p/gsxr%201000%20piston%20kits.htm
Ok... this web page confirms the 15mm wrist pin at least!
I keep saying I need to sell my spare bits I got 3's and 4's of....
This might be the kick in the arse to make me do it.



l8r



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Offline Soos

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2009, 09:00:11 AM »
http://books.google.com/books?id=U331HAv2b4cC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=GSX-R1000+connecting+rod+measurements&source=bl&ots=NZ4eoWg-0o&sig=h7Hw76ukndNIy-cwoJPdQvi1ius&hl=en&ei=_JbPSYW1NqHaswP8roGhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA155,M1


Ok things are looking even better now!
The above website is a manual for the '06/'07 GSX-R1000.
It states the crank pin diameter as 35mm.... :)
same as the cb650.

It also shows the width of the crankpin as 20.10 to 20.15mm.....
Again the same as the CB650!!


Now all I need to verify is the center to center measurements.....
And I think I was wrong on the $$ from Falicon... I think the 280'ish price is per rod... OUCH if thats true...


If so, and the GSX-R1000 stock rods are really 111mm center to center, they will still be a improvement over what the cb650 runs with stock.
ok, mabey not, But I cannot seriously see why not, as they are dealing with 73.4mm pistons....




I'm really getting excited about this!!!

l8r

-=≡ Soos ≡=-
Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: cb750 to 900cc -- I need one 67mm big bore Henry Abe piston
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2009, 03:37:56 PM »
G'Day Soos, hasn't the GSXR1000 engine got a roller bearing crank? Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)