Author Topic: Spark advance springs  (Read 377 times)

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Offline pjlogue

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Spark advance springs
« on: May 17, 2025, 09:54:36 AM »
I wanted to further investigate the spark advance springs without sidetracking Marks post about the 500/550 advancer.

Mark,   I have read many times on this board that the advancer springs on these bikes become annealed over time with heat.  I am no expert in metallurgy.  My basic understanding is that for various steel alloys the annealing temps are very high (700-950 C)  for various steel alloys.  Far beyond what any engine can produce.  Engine oil will begin to coke up at around 500F.  Something else must be causing the small advance springs to begin to relax and lose tension.   My thought is that the springs were not properly annealed when manufactured.  (annealed to much) so that they could be stretched and bent without breaking.  This would account for the springs stretch over many cycles.  Perhaps vibration plays a part. 

If you ever tried to bend a piece of spring steel (clock spring) it snaps.  very hard steel that can be used in knife edges.  These coiled advancer springs will bend.  Both old ones and new ones.  This would indicate the steel they are made from and the slight heat treating they had when manufactured was not adequate for the job they needed to fulfill.  When Honda made these bikes they did not expect them to last for more than a few years.  Few manufactures back then would think a product would last 50+ years! ;)

Your solution for fixing a lose spring is the easiest.  Snip the end and bend the other coill up.  ;)

-P.

Offline newday777

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2025, 10:34:31 AM »
I also thought of starting a new topic on the advancer springs when reading Mark's post. I also think that the springs came too soft, else they would break when we cut them and rebend a loop to hook them.

I was going to post to see if anyone is using the replacement advancer springs from Yamiya and results from them??
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Offline Don R

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2025, 10:41:06 AM »
  I haven't ever checked but always wondered if the advance springs from a GM delco distributor would fit the Honda advancer, my guess is they might be too big in diameter but could be useful since they come in kits of different strengths.
  When I get to the shop I'll see if I can check my theory and report.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2025, 11:20:29 AM »
PJ:
I couldn't agree more with your point of these springs being poorly heat-treated when made. It's extremely common with automation machines for this to happen, too. I came across the "reason for" it being this way when we built a machine for a Swiss medical company in 1998 at MSA, and this machine included a smaller machine (about the size of a king-sized bed) within it, which made the springs (both less than 1 inch long, much like the ones in these bikes) for the rest of the assembly component that our machine made (2 different springs were part of the larger final product). This Swiss machine wound the springs from 'spring wire' and then quickly heat-treated them with electrical current by contacting both ends of the wound-up spring wire and passing a high current (15 amps) though it until it glowed to a certain color, which was monitored by a color vision system. This was said to be an upgrade from their previous method, which used a timer setting for the current and a monitor to make sure the current was sufficient: In those earlier machines they had used a (set time + an expected current) to ensure quality (or else it was rejected, usually for poor conductivity issues) while this new one altered the current to get the color they wanted for the spring's tensile strength.

All this is an (old engineer's) long-winded way of analyzing just how "quality control" is done in automatic equipment. Knowing what I do (and did) about Japan's economy and scale of manufacturing in the 1970s (and through the early 2000s) from having constant contact with them via Honda, SONY, Mitsubishi, Mitsuboshi, Toyota, Daicel and its worldwide affiliates, Panasonic/AIWA and its subsidiaries, and a dozen more Sino-Malaysian operations that were associates in one way or another, I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that Honda, in 1970, had Nippon-Denso, Hitachi and Tokyo Electric Corporation make their spark advancers with the least-expensive spring-wire they could get away with for an anticipated 10,000 miles engine life. And, it was not especially cleaned (for good electrical current contact) nor polished (for surface uniformity) like the spring wire that was found in USA-made automotive distributors that were expected (and specified) to last 100,000 miles.

So, yeah - in the end, these springs are cheap little toys that are currently 45+ years past their bedtime...

I have thought of (and may yet try) re-hardening these springs, although I don't presently have an adjustable-output, 40-amp-capable, low-voltage power supply available to build up such a toy with. (Most of my $$ are currently flowing toward my wife's serious health problems, caused largely by being a Type I diabetic for nearly 60 years, so my experiments out of curiosity are presently few and far between.) I could do it with a sinewave-output oscillator of variable voltage amplitude, driving the backside of a 20:1 transformer of 200 watts' momentary capability from an old model train DC throttle power supply for the controller, all of which I have: I just haven't the time nor $ on hand right now to try it out. :(

Then I could at least re-tension the springs closer to what Honda started with - although I will reiterate that in the case of the 500/550 engines, Honda screwed the pooch big time with the too-fast advance curve (the springs were always too soft) and too little full advance while trying to find a cheap way to meet NOx emissions by simply running the combustion process too rich in these engines: this was, and today still is, the Achilles' Heel of the 500/550 setup. Slowing its advance curve while extending the angle another 4-10 degrees above 5000 RPM really wakes them up if the local gendarmes will let you bypass the tailpipe sniffers in your State for a "vintage" plate. It's just not real simple to do?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2025, 03:21:41 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline dave500

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2025, 09:44:07 PM »
  I haven't ever checked but always wondered if the advance springs from a GM delco distributor would fit the Honda advancer, my guess is they might be too big in diameter but could be useful since they come in kits of different strengths.
  When I get to the shop I'll see if I can check my theory and report.


few years ago now mate with a Yammy xs650 had a broken or missing spring on the advancer,I had a few handy from various old bosch automotive distributors,picked the skinniest weakest looking one and hooked it up,all good!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2025, 04:29:44 AM »
Let me put it this way...: I welcome any test result (like on a Dyno) that will indicate there's gain to be expected in altering the advance curve. So far, the only person who could shed light on this, is member Andreas Milke who has developed an EI which can electronically alter the ignition curve. Only problem is...: he lives in Brasil and fuel there differs substantially from ours.
As far as I remember, the CB500/550 advancer springs were not a real problem in Europe. I have no testimonies, let alone documents like articles, in my archives on this. Don't get me wrong: other countries, like the US, may perceive a problem though. An example of such a 'problem' is the in the US perceived insufficient performance in charging.
Now more than once, it has been put in this forum that Americans tend to use their motors unlike Europeans do: they prefer running the engine at low rpm. Maybe this behaviour causes also the 'issue' with sloppy springs.
Fact is: as far as Europe, I have no proof, either in documents or in testimonies that there is a real problem.
Fact also is: Honda did not see a reason to modify the advancer; the last CB550 models coming from the assembly line in 1977/1978, had the same advancers as the first CB500 in 1971.
Final remark: in Holland workshop service mechanics usually gave a few degrees extra advance. Why? Maybe because of the back then official advice to run premium as fuel.
I am with Dave500: too many here seem concerned with a 'spot on' timing at idle. What matters, is to have the timing right at full advance. Don't worry about the idle: your engine will be just as happy with 7o as with the prescribed 5o advance.
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Offline Herr Supersport

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2025, 06:01:29 AM »
Ignition timing curve discussions are always interesting – like tires and oil.

I generally also believe that our bikes normally run with full advance. However, engine speed in city traffic can sometimes be quite low. In those cases, we're in the adjustment range.
My Kwack H2 reacts quite noticeably to timing changes there.

I ride a CB400f with fully programmable ignition. It's currently set to factory specs, and the bike runs perfectly.
I'm still owing an answer on how a retarded timing curve affects performance [http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,196196.25.html – “Did you perchance get to try having the advance reach full at 4000 RPM? I'd be curious to know how it went.”]

Please give me a few more days – I’ll report back with the results then.

Best regards,
Daniel

Sorry, cannot paste correct link. It's from 3.1.2025 /  CB350 Jetting Help_Mikerts Garage
« Last Edit: May 18, 2025, 06:05:40 AM by Herr Supersport »

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2025, 06:19:59 AM »
Ignition timing curve discussions are always interesting – like tires and oil.

I generally also believe that our bikes normally run with full advance. However, engine speed in city traffic can sometimes be quite low. In those cases, we're in the adjustment range.
My Kwack H2 reacts quite noticeably to timing changes there.

I ride a CB400f with fully programmable ignition. It's currently set to factory specs, and the bike runs perfectly.
I'm still owing an answer on how a retarded timing curve affects performance [http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,196196.25.html – “Did you perchance get to try having the advance reach full at 4000 RPM? I'd be curious to know how it went.”]

Please give me a few more days – I’ll report back with the results then.

Best regards,
Daniel

Sorry, cannot paste correct link. It's from 3.1.2025 /  CB350 Jetting Help_Mikerts Garage

Daniel….. Curious what brand ignition you are using?

Offline pjlogue

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2025, 07:01:50 AM »
Let me put it this way...: I welcome any test result (like on a Dyno) that will indicate there's gain to be expected in altering the advance curve. So far, the only person who could shed light on this, is member Andreas Milke who has developed an EI which can electronically alter the ignition curve. Only problem is...: he lives in Brasil and fuel there differs substantially from ours.
As far as I remember, the CB500/550 advancer springs were not a real problem in Europe. I have no testimonies, let alone documents like articles, in my archives on this. Don't get me wrong: other countries, like the US, may perceive a problem though. An example of such a 'problem' is the in the US perceived insufficient performance in charging.
Now more than once, it has been put in this forum that Americans tend to use their motors unlike Europeans do: they prefer running the engine at low rpm. Maybe this behaviour causes also the 'issue' with sloppy springs.
Fact is: as far as Europe, I have no proof, either in documents or in testimonies that there is a real problem.
Fact also is: Honda did not see a reason to modify the advancer; the last CB550 models coming from the assembly line in 1977/1978, had the same advancers as the first CB500 in 1971.
Final remark: in Holland workshop service mechanics usually gave a few degrees extra advance. Why? Maybe because of the back then official advice to run premium as fuel.
I am with Dave500: too many here seem concerned with a 'spot on' timing at idle. What matters, is to have the timing right at full advance. Don't worry about the idle: your engine will be just as happy with 7o as with the prescribed 5o advance.

Delta, I would disagree with "our engines being just as happy with 7 deg advance vs 5 deg at idle."  If you ever adjusted timing on an engine at "idle", you can hear it smooth out by retarding the advance.  I agree with you that the big thing with timing is the full on advance.  To much and it will quickly destroy and engine. On our bikes, the issue is the advance springs and the change in spring tension over time.  If the springs have stretched, then there are two problems.  One is the idle timing will be to advanced. The second is as engine RPM increases from idle, the timing curve will be to advanced for the rpm and load on the engine.  The engine will start lugging at say 1800 rpm. That will also ruin an engine.  So, yes, idle timing and spark advance curve of the timing is important.  Full on timing is determined by the weight stops on the timing plate.  If you think that the full on timing is the only thing that really matters, try removing the springs from the weights and see how the engine runs. 

-P.

 

Offline Herr Supersport

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2025, 07:02:36 AM »
It's a german-made Accent CTRL [Attention: ELZ2 Coil is the "normal" type that is used together with the Honda-advancer].

Not shure if the CTRL model is still available. I bought it as a prototype designed for CB750 racers, so had to modify a little bit to fit it to my 400f.
If you need more information, please contact me via PM.

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uwe.gottwald@accent-electronic.com

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2025, 08:01:01 AM »
I did the Hondaman "cut a loop off" change on my springs. Seems to be ok at idle and advances  around 2000 rpm, all in by 3000. No issues so far.
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Offline jonda500

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2025, 04:05:11 PM »
I must agree with delta and Dave500, The fully advanced timing is where the engine is when moving and where I live, my bike idles and low rpm runs perfectly well anywhere from 5 to 10 degrees btdc - why would ppl be riding these bikes around at under 2000rpm??
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2025, 08:22:04 PM »
But if it can idle as its maker intended, with the cheapest of simple fixes, why would you not?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2025, 03:41:55 AM »
The maker intended to facilitate easy starting. That's what the advancer - better called retarder - is for. Well, there is no starting issue, not even at 8o degrees static advance. The maker also intended customers to enable enjoy riding and so depart asap after the start. The maker did not intend to have the engine idling for a prolonged time, with the owner sitting in a deckchair next to it listening.
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: Spark advance springs
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2025, 11:02:17 AM »
I don't understand why you're so against restoring the springs performance. And comments like 'sitting in a deck chair' seem a bit odd.

If your bike never idles, you are very lucky. In which case, fine, leave it alone. Even if it does idle, I don't mind if you leave it alone. Your bike, your decision. Personally, I welcome advice. If you see a downside to doing this, I'd be willing to hear about that, in a constructive way.

I'm not as fortunate as you. My bike does idle on rides. I have junctions, traffic lights, roundabouts and occasionally traffic hold ups. If it looks like a long hold up, I switch off. Otherwise, I'd prefer my bike to idle as well as it can. Even, as well as Honda intended. I don't think that's a particularly surprising aspiration? It's not as if the fix being suggested is a trade off. As I"ve understood it, the engine still reaches its full advance in its usual operating window, doesn't it?