Topic: Lockheed Brakes on a CB750

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Does anyone have the model/specs/info for Lockheed brakes for a CB750?  I read somewhere (I think in Mike Duckworth's book) that the M3 CR750 uses a dual disc Lockheed set up, but I couldn't find out any information.  I'm converting my single front disc to a dual front set up, and I heard that Lockheed makes a period authentic set-up that will fit on 69-76 forks. 

[moham]

When I search lockheed, I keep coming up with AP/Lockheed calipers. Is that AP of AP Racing? Are they the same/connected company?

[lordmoonpie]

When I search lockheed, I keep coming up with AP/Lockheed calipers. Is that AP of AP Racing? Are they the same/connected company?

Yes one and the same - AP Racing is the current company. Not sure about direct bolt ons though - I can only find (and have used) classic race calipers that need an extra mounting plate creating. It also means being creative with the standard fender brackets...but the end result is worth the hassle.

[moham]

When I search lockheed, I keep coming up with AP/Lockheed calipers. Is that AP of AP Racing? Are they the same/connected company?

Yes one and the same - AP Racing is the current company. Not sure about direct bolt ons though - I can only find (and have used) classic race calipers that need an extra mounting plate creating. It also means being creative with the standard fender brackets...but the end result is worth the hassle.

Yea, that's what I was beginning to suspect. In that case, for the OP, here's the link:

http://www.apracing.com/info/products.asp?product=Solo+%26+Classic+Machines+plus+Sidecar+2+Piston+Caliper-CP2696-38E0_2536_1085

Lordmoonie, I'm assuming the heading under calipers for "Solo & Classic Machines plus Sidecar" is the right section. Is this correct?

[Geeto67]

Does anyone have the model/specs/info for Lockheed brakes for a CB750?  I read somewhere (I think in Mike Duckworth's book) that the M3 CR750 uses a dual disc Lockheed set up, but I couldn't find out any information.  I'm converting my single front disc to a dual front set up, and I heard that Lockheed makes a period authentic set-up that will fit on 69-76 forks. 

Original CR750s and kits used mostly stock components. Some were recast in magnesium and aluminum but really they were not that far off from a street bike.

there is so much that is different about the m3 CR750 that I doubt you could just bolt on a set of lockheed calipers and call it a day. The M3 bike uses:

Alloy top/bottom triple clamps with special offset
37mm Honda forks with Race Tech set up and special springs
Titanium front & rear axels, from Dick Mann spares



if you wanted to do this look cheap with a dual disc just go buy a 75-76 GL1000 front end. The forks are 37mm and the clamps are different from cb750 clamps (but they bolt to the cb750 frame neck). GL1000 '75-76 front ends come with an alloy rim and dual discs standard, and the caliper configuration is similar in look to the m3 setup. I paid $150 for my 75 GL1000 front end on ebay. Call me crazy but it actually looks like m3 used GL1000 forks on their bike for the 37mm forks (actually I can't tell if they are GL1000 or Ceriani forks and I don't have a better picture, more than likely they are Ceriani)

stopping wise they are good street brakes, much better than stock cb750. besides you don't need race brakes unless you are actually planning on racing and then you need period components.

[voxonda]

Excuse me fot interrupting, but these are no Lockheed calipers but Grimeca calipers. The Grimeca is a more economic solution. Diametre of the piston is 0.3 m/m smaller but mountingwise they are interchangeable, also the brakepads match. Have them on my Japauto replica.
You could consider using the lower legs from a F or even a early DOHC, makes it much easier to mount these calipers.

Cheers.

[moham]

For argument's sake, here's a pic of the "Classic" Ap/Lockheed caliper:

[voxonda]

These are my Grimeca's:

Surged and found an article about the M3 racer, Adam Popp, used to ride and that one also uses the Grimeca setup.

[Geeto67]

Grimeca and Lockheed calipers are actually the same exact design. I am not sure who had it first (I think lockheed). This issue comes up a lot in nortons where the norvil original brakes are lockheed and the reproductions are grimeca - they are identical except for the name casting. Grimeca calipers are still available and you can buy dual disc kits for nortons ready to bolt on.

I am using a grimeca caliper on a kosman hub setup for my 750, I also have a lockheed norvil norton setup and let me tell you the calipers are literally identical except for the name casting.

[moham]

Geeto, is it worth noting that, on the M3 CR you pictured above, the rotors look stock? Is it weird that they are not drilled, cast iron or otherwise modified for racing app? Or is my untrained eye fooling me...

[Geeto67]

Geeto, is it worth noting that, on the M3 CR you pictured above, the rotors look stock? Is it weird that they are not drilled, cast iron or otherwise modified for racing app? Or is my untrained eye fooling me...

It is of some note. That bike went through a lot of changes in its development as an authentic race bike. At one point they were running a cr750 style setup with stock cb750 calipers and rotors, it is possible they used the stock rotors and hub - they are a full service shop with machine tools so they can fab up anything. The GL rotors look similar as well but I can't find a good pic for comparison.

Depending on application, the grimeca/lockheed calipers used the stock brake discs. On norvil bikes they used stock norton commando rotors, where as I have seen some setups on morris mag cb750s where a lockheed rotor was used. On some dunstall domi-racers they used Lyster discs.

I should also note that depening on year and revision the girmeca will be the same as the lockheed or slightly different. They have been in use for close to 40 years now on various applications and I have seen some with different piston sizes like vox has stated and others where you couldn't tell the difference. I even have a 1960's racing go-kart that my father and uncle built that has one on the back and that is from about 1965 but it is slightly different from even the later lockheed ones. Somewhere I also have master cylinder caliper one piece lockheed brake setup that were used for gokarts and small hardtail motorcycle rear disc brakes (from about 1961-62).

[voxonda]

These are turned down rotors. We often went down to 4.0 mm. And that is a lot of weight.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Looks like the AP/Lockheed model goes for about $64 per caliper (http://tti.ie/product_info.php?products_id=607&osCsid=d9b73773cdaa8ea0bf250ce4319f4ea7).  I couldn't find anything specific on the comparable Gremico line.

[lordmoonpie]

AP lockheed came first in fact that's why Honda has the god awful swinging caliper bracket on the early bikes because AP owned the worldwide copyright on twin piston opposed calipers I believe.

M3's picture seems to use some sort of bracket on the caliper. Here's the AP on my Bomber which is running a 750 front end anyway....discs are 4mm cast iron aftermarket jobs and are ace!

Calipers retail here in the UK for about £90 - mate it up with an AP classic master cylinder for rock hard brakes and modern bike stopping power 

[moham]

Looks like the AP/Lockheed model goes for about $64 per caliper (http://tti.ie/product_info.php?products_id=607&osCsid=d9b73773cdaa8ea0bf250ce4319f4ea7).  I couldn't find anything specific on the comparable Gremico line.

That seems crazy cheap. But it is about two or three bills for the MC that goes with it. So I guess it all gets up there.

[fishhead]

Shelby Dowd rear wheel with a Gremeca caliper from the 1970's.

 I worked on a  6 wheeled amphibious thing (I for get the name of it, it was newer like a 2004) made in Canada and it had the same Grimeca calipers on it.

[Ricky_Racer]

AP lockheed came first in fact that's why Honda has the god awful swinging caliper bracket on the early bikes because AP owned the worldwide copyright on twin piston opposed calipers I believe.

M3's picture seems to use some sort of bracket on the caliper. Here's the AP on my Bomber which is running a 750 front end anyway....discs are 4mm cast iron aftermarket jobs and are ace!

Calipers retail here in the UK for about £90 - mate it up with an AP classic master cylinder for rock hard brakes and modern bike stopping power 

LMP, are you certain about the AP Racing price in the UK?  January '09 pricing from Old Britts for the caliper alone is "14-000004, Caliper, CP2696 $303.37"  That's in line with the pricing I've seen in the US for the last couple years.

Could you please verify your pricing and post a current quote on the front and rear master cylinders as well?  Thanks!  RR

[lordmoonpie]

I'll check current price - last one I bought was bout 18 months ago and it was £88 for the caliper...when they come back  to me I'll let you know

[fishhead]

 I worked on a  6 wheeled amphibious thing (I for get the name of it, it was newer like a 2004) made in Canada and it had the same Grimeca calipers on it.

It was an Argo 6 wheeler. I looked for some parts links on the web, but I couldnt find any.

[voxonda]

AP lockheed came first in fact that's why Honda has the god awful swinging caliper bracket on the early bikes because AP owned the worldwide copyright on twin piston opposed calipers I believe.

M3's picture seems to use some sort of bracket on the caliper. Here's the AP on my Bomber which is running a 750 front end anyway....discs are 4mm cast iron aftermarket jobs and are ace!

Calipers retail here in the UK for about £90 - mate it up with an AP classic master cylinder for rock hard brakes and modern bike stopping power 

LMP, are you certain about the AP Racing price in the UK?  January '09 pricing from Old Britts for the caliper alone is "14-000004, Caliper, CP2696 $303.37"  That's in line with the pricing I've seen in the US for the last couple years.

Could you please verify your pricing and post a current quote on the front and rear master cylinders as well?  Thanks!  RR

There are two types of calipers: CP2195 $245 and CP2696 $164. The first being the 'real' vintage deal is about 50% more expensive. Grimeca GRI-0001 $89 Now you know why many people use Grimeca's.
The CP2195 are the originals, the CP2692 are slightly different in diametre of the mountingholes 9.7 vs. 10.2 mm. The CP2195 is designed for a max. disc diametre of 254 mm (10"), the CP2696 can handle a disk of 304mm (almost 12"). All internal parts, piston, sealing are the same.
The CP2195 were out of production, but after a big fire in a British museum where the original "Slippery Sam" was burned, they rebuild the bike and AP/lockheed made some new ones. After that there seem to be a big market for them and they started to reproduce them.

Cheers, Rob

[kos]

Yes, we have tried many combinations of brakes on the CR750 that we raced from 1997 to 2003. First was OEM brake calipers/pads, onto Grimica calipers and drilled 4mm thick discs. I would offer that you cannot find real Lockheed calipers for the amounts listed, and I have lost my sorce for Gremica...if anyone can find me these, please let me and the forum know. Key to stopping this bike bike is the pads that you use on the stainless steel discs. A note: we ran the discs we did, as per AHRMA vintage/classic rules... we were no allowed to use full floating discs..which would be the way to go. The man to talk to about old bikes stopping is at: Vintagebrakes.com

KOS

[voxonda]

Hi Mark,

You are correct in that, there will be a 17.5% tax on these. But these are the prices from a British resource. If there is interest, will find out if the prices still stand, as far as I know they do.

Cheers, Rob

[lordmoonpie]

An old topic but I have some new information so worth updating perhaps? I'm going to put AP calipers on my CR750 now that I've tried and do not like the original honda ones in the least!

Mark is kind of right that the original CP2195 calipers which were left and right handed were superseded by the CP2696 caliper. You can however still get original and both design of calipers from AP because all of the classic calipers were remade following the dreadful fire at the national motorcycle museum. The CP2195s are absolutely original design and are slightly more expensive at £180 plus tax and postage but the CP2696 are much better value and have evolved into a better caliper - these are only £107 plus tax and carriage. You have to buy pads on top but there are good Mintex race pads available especially if you are running cast discs like me. The CP2696 differs over the CP2195 by being slightly longer to give better swept area on the disc, slightly bigger cooling find which add rigidity and aid cooling as well and they are set up so they are not handed - you just move the bleed nipple around the set holes to achieve the side you want. Altogether a better proposition I think.

On the master cylinder, AP only now offer one m/c. The old big bore CP2410 m/c is no longer offered as they made improvements to the CP2215 single disc m/c internally which meant it was a good dual OR single disc m/c.

If you want to take advantage of these excellent stoppers, the prices are current as of the dtae of this post and you can order through www.andover-norton.co.uk

I have no affiliation with these guys but I do buy all of my AP kit from them and have doen for 15 years now. Their customer service and knowledge is excellent...

[Old Scrambler]

Thanks to his Lordship for update........I can add that the rear unit from Hurst-Airhart is still available and I have used one since 1975.......but with moderate dependability........the disk wil rust and the pad/piston combo is prone to locking up and wears fast........but it looks cool if you want a lightweight rear disk on your K model.

[voxonda]

Something to consider might be the use of Brembo P08's. They are easy to find and cheap. Specially if you search for used BMW ones. When looking for Ducati makes the register rinkle but the same ones are fitted on the "flying bricks" for much less. Bought a set of these on Ebay for 30USD. And use the sam e on my own Endurance replica with Ferodo CP211 pads. Very, very good braking. Same as the Lockheeds on the Japauto replica, but for far less money.

Rob

[dakota]

So, the Lockheeds or/and the Brembos are better than the double pistons calipers from the cb750/900 Boldor's?

[voxonda]

IMO they are, but like in every other caliper you do need the right pads.

[754]

 Rickman used the Lockheed calipers. Another source if desiring "the look", is early Performance machine, they have the cross ribs and same bolt pattern, plus use GL pads... got to be some of them out there..

[dakota]

Aloha,
On the standard F2 forks with comstars is it possible to put the brembos.
Is this correct? With the use of new brackets.
Is there something else necessary to put the calibers on?
gp

[754]

 Yes, bolts..

[dakota]

Is it possible to put the brembos p08 on the fork of a goldwing gl1000 using the gl1000 caliber brackets?
Or do you need custom made brackets?