Topic: Engine braking vs. Brakes

[pmpski_1]

I have a habit of using 2nd gear to cruise through neighborhood streets, allowing the engine to slow me down at intersections. I don't use the brakes as much this way. I also do the same thing going down steep hills.

I'm a new rider. Is this a bad habit that I should "break" or is this ok for old bikes?

[Mark M]

I use engine braking all the time, it's smoother and unsettles the suspension less. I did a track course once where we spent half the morning riding round without changing gear or touching the brakes, it's a good excercise for throttle control and encourages you to carry more corner speed. The brakes can be used to provide the extra braking required over and above engine braking,( sitting up on a sports bike can also be used as a bit of airbrake ). A good read on bike control for both track and road is Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist, he's the guy who set up the California Superbike School.

[Raul CB750K1]

Also, while riding on neighbourhood streets it's good to have the bike a little revved, so you have plenty of power to take off in case you need, as in a crossing or a dog attack.

Raul

[hymodyne]

I'm a cb 500 rider who is wondering if this type of speed control is in any way damaging to the clutch.


hym

[mkarcz]

I am also wondering the "how?" of down shifting.  Should you give some gas, do you need to use the clutch or just click down? I have been using the clutch and gas sometimes, and sometimes not, depending on the urgency.
mark

[Paul]

I was told once - "You are not a rally driver, do not use the engine to slow down, you do not have a crew to change the gearbox and clutch. Engine....GO, brakes....Stop."
When changing down one should have the bike at the correct speed / revs to just be able to drop the lever and not notice the difference...it's a touchy feely thing. but you don't want to hear "Whhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....."
Says I, with my wealth of expierience...

[SteveD CB500F]

Colin McRae (ex world champ rally driver) once answered this question by saying "it takes 20 seconds to change the brake pads but 30 minutes to change the gearbox - always use brakes"  !!

That's fine for a rally driver with quick change parts and a backup crew. I use engine braking as it gives more control when entering a bend.

As for gear changes, I'm a great believer in clutchless up-changing (I once put this to a VFR-rider mate of mine whose response was "I diidn't realise there was any other way" !!

Clutchless down-chages are a different matter. I've been riding for 30 years and have never managed to master this.

[Raul CB750K1]

I use engine to control speed, and brakes just sparingly to adjust speed or to take the vehicle to a standstill. Yesterday my car give me a warning about replacing the brake pads. They are still the original ones, and the car have 105.000 km in the odo (about 60.000 miles).

The good thing about engine braking is that you still have the brakes as a back-up in case the unexpected appear.


Raul

[Mark M]

The idea is not to overstress anything.
If you use engine braking it won't damage the gearbox, it's changing down too early that will do that (valves too if you realy try). On clutchless changes an instructor once suggested that instead of blipping the throtle you could just hold it constant. The idea being that the revs will rise as the gerbox disengages, thus rising the revs to match the new gearbox speed. You weight the gearlever just before slipping the clutch a little and it drops in the moment the drive is lost. It works quite well but after 20 ...odd years I'm quite happy with the blip and ease in method. Perhaps if I was going racing I would find a difference. 

[douglascoolgrey]

Colin McRae (ex world champ rally driver) once answered this question by saying "it takes 20 seconds to change the brake pads but 30 minutes to change the gearbox - always use brakes" !!

On the other side of the coin, which would you rather have fail unexpectedly: the gearbox or the brakes?

I've never eaten a clutch or broken a gearbox, and I downshift all the time on both cars and motorcycles. I try to never downshift when I'm rev'd so high the bike jerks or shutters. My 550 has a nasty habit of locking the back wheel on sudden stops. Maybe it is protecting its own gearbox.

[Uncle Ernie]

First of all, using engine braking is the same as using the rear brake as far as braking forces go. Around 75% of your stopping power is in the front brake, however. Don't ever be afraid to use the front brake. Excersizes in parking lots help to get to know your bike in this respect.  Some bikes (like my Guzzi) benefit greatly by the use of a little rear brake when entering a corner, for example. If you are locking up the rear wheel for any reason, I'm sorry, but you're out of control; either the ground is slick, something is wrong with your brake, or you're not using enough front brake to begin with.
Racing bikes have owners who ecpect to rebuild/fix things constantly, but speed and handling are their only concerns. It takes a lot of intensive training to understand how to ride like that and they still get hurt. I hear that tracks are "safer", but they aren't- they just have a different set of dangers. I don't have stats, but I suspect percentage-wise, there are actually more injuries on the track.
Personally, I use my front brake much more than my rear, and I shift constantly- using my clutch. It takes practice to get good at matching engine and gear speed when downshifting. I drive the throttle with my thumb while clutching, using the front brake alittle and downshifting (seemingly) all at once.
David Hough also has a couple of good books that I found were easier to understand, especially in a non-racing/real-world forum.
My 2 cents

[eldar]

I guess I go with ernie on this. I use my clutch as replacing clutch plates is easier than repairing a tranny and I feel you can get into the power more.  I do a combo of engine braking and brakes. I use brakes to slow down and use the engine as a way to control speed when coasting downhill and maybe sometimes coming up to a stop sign.

[MetalHead550]

I believe in using a ballanced amount of engine breaking and the breaks.  I made it a habit to use both breaks in almost all situations since it tends to keep the suspension in ballance and you in control cuz both your tires are getting the same force and traction.  When coming to a stop from speed I will start with downshifting as the revs become appropriate and by the time Im in 3rd or so I begin to slightly ride the rear break while feathering the front break and continuing downshifting.  The idea is to never grab at the breaks but to sqeeze them.  This also applies to emergency situations.  Not too long ago I had a couple deer run out in front of me while doing 65 down a country road and luckily I was in the habit I described, and instead of slamming the breaks I found myself squeezing both breaks without locking up and downshifting like a mad man.  Never lost control and came to a creep in a matter of seconds.  Use of both breaks it also important in the turns to as far as setting yourself up for a hard turn.  Gotta keep that suspension level and only feather the breaks if you must while in the turn.  Another trick is if you find yourself going through a corner to fast and you know you cant hold it, throw your knee into the tank a bit and you will find it produces a kind of gyro effect that may save your ass.  Try it sometime in a non emergency situation, say in high speed lane change.  Im not saying blast your knee into the tank but if you ride as I do with your knees firm against the tank, and you wanna go left, press your right knee into the tank as you lean left and press the bars right.  May not have the same effect on other bikes but man...the 550, shes where you want it in a heartbeat!  Ha! ok Im done...

[Mark M]

Oh no don't get me onto steering.
You can not steer a bike with body weight. Like most people who have read up on the subject it's hard
to believe at first. But once you try and ride with the steering locked up you will become a believer. I managed
to lock mine by coming up with a bright idea. I put my ignition switch on a 4" length of chain so that the rest of the keys in the bunch droped down below the top yolk so that they didn't scratch it. What a F@@@ing stupid idea that was. The keys wedged in the steering and I was only able to go in  a straight line, very frightening. The Californian superbike school have a bike with two sets of bars, the second is just bolted onto the frame so that you can experience the total loss of directional control once you cant turn the front wheel, scary.

[Uncle Ernie]

"...keep the suspension in ballance and you in control cuz both your tires are getting the same force and traction."
Sorry Metal- when you're slowing/stopping your weight is shifting forward; there is more weight on the front wheel, which is why you have more braking power in the front brake. Conversely, the rear wheel is lighter and that's why it's so easy to lock it up and go into a slide.
As far as turning goes, if you push right, you go right.


                                             


                                                          ... here we go again 

[seaweb11]

Here is a photo of the training bike refered to above.

[SteveD CB500F]

Ernie - after reading that stuff about "push the right bar gently" on a thread here a while back, I tried it.

Holy crap it really works!  30 years I've been riding these bikes and I've never really considered the physics of steering. It just seems counter-intuitive to state that "push the right bar will make you go right" - but it does...

[SteveD CB500F]

Mark - I've ridden off with the steering lock on (haven't we all at one time?).

Does that count?

[Mark M]

Steve,
Er........No and ......No.
Now disc locks are another matter!

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

Brakes are cheap, Clutches are not.

[ElCheapo]

I try to do both with the exception of my CX 500, which has next to no brakes at all. You can stop nice at 10mph or less after that well you know the sound of needing brakes. And these are just rears. Fronts are non functional right now. Just too lazy to change them and I don't ride it much right now anyway. Last week country road 70mph. If you're careful and don't beat the clutch and transmission it is easy to do without over shifting.

Just another part of my insanity... I'll go weave a basket now.

[cb350f_rider_73]

Engine braking does get the job done, but as someone who has replaced a tranny in a bike before, I would rather replace the brake pads.  There are also several other valid points, all mentioned earlier in this thread, such as how 70% of your braking power is in the front brake.  My thought is this:  wouldn't be a good idea to be in the habit of using maximum braking at all times, so when you need it you automatically go for it?  That's what we teach over in the MSF courses.

Wayne

[DRam]

My thought is this:  wouldn't be a good idea to be in the habit of using maximum braking at all times, so when you need it you automatically go for it?

Do you mean the maximum amount of brake needed to stop you in a reasonable distance, or do you mean a tire-howling, barely controlled stop at every stoplight?  To me 'maximum braking' means the latter, and I only use it when a car or deer threatens me with imminent destruction.  I do use the engine, front brake and rear brake for every stop so that it is an automatic action.  That has saved my bacon several times when an emergency stop was accomplished without having to figure out what to do while approaching an obsatcle.

[Jim Shea]

I agree, front brake, rear brake and engine every time..

[Bob Wessner]

Makes that three of us I guess. One reason I favor engine braking also is that you are likely to keep the appropriate gear you need at any given speed as you are decelerating so if need be, you have some acceleration capability if you should need it. If you use brakes alone and save the down shifting until the last moment(s) you would likely be in too high a gear should you need to accelerate. Hope this makes sense.

[Jonesy]

I've engine braked because the owner's manual (for my cb750 anyway) says it's perfectly OK to do so, as long as your engine doesn't make a foray into the red zone on the tach..

[dusterdude]

me 5.

[cb350f_rider_73]

Do you mean the maximum amount of brake needed to stop you in a reasonable distance, or do you mean a tire-howling, barely controlled stop at every stoplight?  To me 'maximum braking' means the latter, and I only use it when a car or deer threatens me with imminent destruction.  I do use the engine, front brake and rear brake for every stop so that it is an automatic action.  That has saved my bacon several times when an emergency stop was accomplished without having to figure out what to do while approaching an obsatcle.

Max amount needed to stop in a reasonable distance.  A tire-howling, skidding-every-way-but-loose stop is rather dangerous, and not good control at all.  Most of the time, you don't need all the braking the bike is capable of, so you can just sorta ease in for the stop.   

Wayne

[Gordon]

I'm gonna agree with Bob on this one (anything's possible ).  I generally downshift once I'm in the speed range for the next lower gear.  It slows the bike down some, but mainly it's just to keep it in the right gear for the speed I'm currently traveling.

[dusterdude]

good god,the worlds goin to come to an end.

[mick750F]

   Add me to the both brakes + downshift gang. It's just a more balanced way to ride. It's important to be in the gear you need to be in if you have to accelerate quickly. As has already been mentioned the front brake has much more stopping power than the rear but the rear should be used also.

   Years ago a guy I rode with told me that he only used the rear brake. He was convinced that you didn't need the front. Something about hitting them too hard and flipping the bike. Nothing I could say would get him to change his way of thinking. It was that day that I decided to never be in front of him when riding. I don't ride with him anymore but I sometimes see him and wonder if he's figured it out yet. It has to be pretty hard stopping that Road King with just the rear brake.

Mike

[cb350f_rider_73]

They make bikes nowadays with linked and integrated brakes just for folks like him, I guess.  Hit the rear brakes and you get all of 'em.   

Wayne

[Bob Wessner]

Some even have ABS. 

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

good god,the worlds goin to come to an end.

"Cats and dogs sleeping together!"

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

Brakes are cheap, Clutches are not.

I will say it again.  Front brake pads 20.00 clutch pack and front pads 120.00.  Time to replace front pads 10 minutes.  Clutch pack and front pads 1hr 10min.

I down shift as the bike slows so that I am in the right gear, I just never let out the clutch.

[Buffo]

I am terrified of the rear brake. I almost never use it to stop the bike. I mainly use mine to keep the bike stopped once stopped at a light or where ever...

I dont really engine brake ether, I shift just to keep it in the proper gear...mainly I just use the front unless the poop hits the fan then I will use all three...I know how to use the rear...I am just more comfortable using the front...

Most people dont realize how well their brakes work so the tend to over brake and brake to often

...with cars, in the olden days you engine braked because brakes failed a lot so it was better to slow down with the tranny, but here in 2005 brakes are a bit better so for most applications engine braking is a personal preference not a nessesity...

[Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"]

I use the front brake a lot more than the rear also.  Not in a corner or when on gravel of course but most of the time.  i can clamp it on and it will almost slid the wheel so I know I have 100% braking in the front.  I use the rear if i want to stop even faster.  Again front pads are cheap.  i am cheap.