Topic: Okay, This Is About My Super Hawk Crankshaft Bearings

[bill440cars]

     The factory right side crankshaft bearings consists of an inner race, rollers and then the outer race. The left side is a standard ball  bearing. Now, the parts book lists a replacement bearing which is the same as the left side bearing.

     My questions are: (And I've posted this over on the 305 forums)

     1. Is one type better than the other one?

     2. Is the inner race of the original type, hard to remove?

     3. Which type of bearing would YOU prefer and why?

                      Thank you for your time, Bill

     Here's the illustration and info listing:

     

     Item #s 6,7 & 17 for the one type and item# 16 for the replacement

      http://www.crotchrocket.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/7/Honda.aspx

[mattcb350f]

My guess is the roller bearing replacement would be better. The reason is that in that picture, it looks like the three piece original bearing is a 'needle' bearing. It looks like part #7 is the cage and part # 17 represents the needles.

If this is true, It looks like the needle bearing uses the crankshaft as the inner race, with the needles riding directly in the crankshaft. The replacement ball bearing will have it's own inner race.

Later models (I think) use roller (ball) bearings on both sides, at least the Honda's I've worked on.

 Matt.

[bill440cars]

My guess is the roller bearing replacement would be better. The reason is that in that picture, it looks like the three piece original bearing is a 'needle' bearing. It looks like part #7 is the cage and part # 17 represents the needles.

If this is true, It looks like the needle bearing uses the crankshaft as the inner race, with the needles riding directly in the crankshaft. The replacement ball bearing will have it's own inner race.

Later models (I think) use roller (ball) bearings on both sides, at least the Honda's I've worked on.

 Matt.

      Matt, actually #7 is the inner race(LOOKS LIKE I NEED TO SEE WHAT I"M LOOKING AT and # 6 is the outer race. You are right that # 17 is the needles though. I'm leaning towards the "ball bearing" myself (#16). I'm just curious why Honda would have put such a bearing in there to start with? 

      Here's the listing for #6:

      6    View Sku Supersession
       SKU: 13411-268-010
RACE, BEARING (OUTER) (Honda Code 0036111)    1    $68.96

      7        SKU: 13481-268-010
RETAINER, ROLLER (Honda Code 0036129) Use from Engine SN 0100001 to 0109755    1    $20.26
 
     17    View Sku Supersession
Loading...
   SKU: 91101-268-000
ROLLER (4X10) (Honda Code 0040394)    20    $0.99

               And the replacement bearing:

     16        SKU: 91002-259-010
BEARING, BALL (63062) (Honda Code 0040337) (NOT AVAILABLE) Use from Engine SN 0110001 to 0110280    1    $20.66
 

[754]

Other brands used multi piece bearings with a similar design to that one, some still in use today.

One advantage to them was, that oversize rollers were available, and easily replaced, when high hour wear eventually occured.

Not saying Honda did have oversize, but if they did, it sure would be cheaper and quicker to  put them in.

[bryanj]

Old british for years used a ball bearing one end to locate the crank axialy and allow a small amount of end "load" as the bearing will happily take a bit of side thrust if spec'd right.

Having the roller at the other end allowed from some machining tolerances so everything sidewase didnt have to be exact (which is probably why us brits did it that way!!)

Now the twin ball will require exact distances as whilst they can take a SMALL end load too much will wear them excessivley which Honda found was a problem on the MB/MT 50 and 80

[MCRider]

My guess is the roller bearing replacement would be better. The reason is that in that picture, it looks like the three piece original bearing is a 'needle' bearing. It looks like part #7 is the cage and part # 17 represents the needles.

If this is true, It looks like the needle bearing uses the crankshaft as the inner race, with the needles riding directly in the crankshaft. The replacement ball bearing will have it's own inner race.

Later models (I think) use roller (ball) bearings on both sides, at least the Honda's I've worked on.

 Matt.

       Matt, actually # 7 is the inner race and # 6 is the outer race. You are right that # 17 is the needles though. I'm leaning towards the "ball bearing" myself (#16). I'm just curious why Honda would have put such a bearing in there to start with? 

      Here's the listing for #6:

      6    View Sku Supersession
       SKU: 13411-268-010
RACE, BEARING (OUTER) (Honda Code 0036111)    1    $68.96

      7        SKU: 13481-268-010
RETAINER, ROLLER (Honda Code 0036129) Use from Engine SN 0100001 to 0109755    1    $20.26
 
     17    View Sku Supersession
Loading...
   SKU: 91101-268-000
ROLLER (4X10) (Honda Code 0040394)    20    $0.99

               And the replacement bearing:

     16        SKU: 91002-259-010
BEARING, BALL (63062) (Honda Code 0040337) (NOT AVAILABLE) Use from Engine SN 0110001 to 0110280    1    $20.66
 

That's not how I read it. #7 is the cage (retainer) for the needles, but it is not a race. I tend to agree with Matt that the crank is the inner race.

[bill440cars]

My guess is the roller bearing replacement would be better. The reason is that in that picture, it looks like the three piece original bearing is a 'needle' bearing. It looks like part #7 is the cage and part # 17 represents the needles.

If this is true, It looks like the needle bearing uses the crankshaft as the inner race, with the needles riding directly in the crankshaft. The replacement ball bearing will have it's own inner race.

Later models (I think) use roller (ball) bearings on both sides, at least the Honda's I've worked on.

 Matt.

       Matt, actually # 7 is the inner race and # 6 is the outer race. You are right that # 17 is the needles though. I'm leaning towards the "ball bearing" myself (#16). I'm just curious why Honda would have put such a bearing in there to start with? 

      Here's the listing for #6:

      6    View Sku Supersession
       SKU: 13411-268-010
RACE, BEARING (OUTER) (Honda Code 0036111)    1    $68.96

      7        SKU: 13481-268-010
RETAINER, ROLLER (Honda Code 0036129) Use from Engine SN 0100001 to 0109755    1    $20.26
 
     17    View Sku Supersession
Loading...
   SKU: 91101-268-000
ROLLER (4X10) (Honda Code 0040394)    20    $0.99

               And the replacement bearing:

     16        SKU: 91002-259-010
BEARING, BALL (63062) (Honda Code 0040337) (NOT AVAILABLE) Use from Engine SN 0110001 to 0110280    1    $20.66
 

That's not how I read it. #7 is the cage (retainer) for the needles, but it is not a race. I tend to agree with Matt that the crank is the inner race.

          Guys, Sorry about that, it seems that I was looking and not seeing the obvious on this setup, my apologies Matt, you are absolutely right about that. Got to be MORE careful!   Thank you MC for pointing it out and getting me to REALLY read the thing (that I! posted. And so, apparently, if you can get the substitute ball bearing that is for the right side, you just put it on over the surface where the needle bearings ran. 

[MCRider]

My guess is the roller bearing replacement would be better. The reason is that in that picture, it looks like the three piece original bearing is a 'needle' bearing. It looks like part #7 is the cage and part # 17 represents the needles.

If this is true, It looks like the needle bearing uses the crankshaft as the inner race, with the needles riding directly in the crankshaft. The replacement ball bearing will have it's own inner race.

Later models (I think) use roller (ball) bearings on both sides, at least the Honda's I've worked on.

 Matt.

       Matt, actually # 7 is the inner race and # 6 is the outer race. You are right that # 17 is the needles though. I'm leaning towards the "ball bearing" myself (#16). I'm just curious why Honda would have put such a bearing in there to start with? 

      Here's the listing for #6:

      6    View Sku Supersession
       SKU: 13411-268-010
RACE, BEARING (OUTER) (Honda Code 0036111)    1    $68.96

      7        SKU: 13481-268-010
RETAINER, ROLLER (Honda Code 0036129) Use from Engine SN 0100001 to 0109755    1    $20.26
 
     17    View Sku Supersession
Loading...
   SKU: 91101-268-000
ROLLER (4X10) (Honda Code 0040394)    20    $0.99

               And the replacement bearing:

     16        SKU: 91002-259-010
BEARING, BALL (63062) (Honda Code 0040337) (NOT AVAILABLE) Use from Engine SN 0110001 to 0110280    1    $20.66
 

That's not how I read it. #7 is the cage (retainer) for the needles, but it is not a race. I tend to agree with Matt that the crank is the inner race.

          Guys, Sorry about that, it seems that I was looking and not seeing the obvious on this setup, my apologies Matt, you are absolutely right about that. Got to be MORE careful!   Thank you MC for pointing it out and getting me to REALLY read the thing (that I! posted. And so, apparently, if you can get the substitute ball bearing that is for the right side, you just put it on over the surface where the needle bearings ran. 

No prob. Armed with "63062" you should be able to get a bearing at any supply house.

I've got a CB77 I'll be doing someday. My engine is fine, but the chassis is apart for resto.

I've got a spare CB77 engine I'd like to hop up. Great bikes!

[754]

If the roller actually ran on the crank, you will see a wear pattern.

Which brings the next problem, if you replace with a regular bearing like the other side, it had better contact both sides of the wear pattern (straddle). If it does not, rapid bearing wear will be the result. In addition, any worn area greatly reduces the actual fit of the bearing to crank.

Are you sure that seperator in not actually the bearings running surface as well? (protects the crank)

the 305  forum guys should know...

[bill440cars]

      Well, I just made a deal with a fellow who I knew had SOME of the Super Hawk parts including the bearing parts, at one time. I decided to check with him and see if he still had any of the bearing parts and he does, so I made a deal to get a set and my crankshaft will finally be in bearings on BOTH ends! Now, I'm starting to wonder which one will get done 1st, the 250 Jawa (built the way my Dad did his) or the Super Hawk (done up the way I might have done my old Hawk, if I still had it).

[crazypj]

Hi Bill,
Didn't see this earlier.
 Reason for ball bearing is to limit side movement of crank when cases get hot and expand,usually locates non-drive side in position
The roller bearings allow sideways movement without 'fretting' the cases and wearing out main bearing bore. Roller bearing has a higer radial load capability (more surface contact, line instead of point contact.)
PJ

[bill440cars]

Hi Bill,
Didn't see this earlier.
 Reason for ball bearing is to limit side movement of crank when cases get hot and expand,usually locates non-drive side in position
The roller bearings allow sideways movement without 'fretting' the cases and wearing out main bearing bore. Roller bearing has a higer radial load capability (more surface contact, line instead of point contact.)
PJ

          Might know that you'd know all that technical stuff PJ. ANd I'm glad that you did AND passed it on. I never really thought about the details of the different bearings but I can see what you are talking.

[KARamsay]

Call Tim Mcdowell

http://www.classichondarestoration.com/Vintage_Honda_Parts.php

Ran into him this weekend.  He will know your answer.

[bill440cars]

Call Tim Mcdowell

http://www.classichondarestoration.com/Vintage_Honda_Parts.php

Ran into him this weekend.  He will know your answer.

           Thanks for the name AND the link, I've checked the site out and saw SOME things that aren't priced too  badly And SOME things that ARE, but I expected to see that.

            I'll have to check him out.              

[KARamsay]

I know him mildly well.  He does a lot of VJMC stuff I drop by from time to time.   

Talk to him on the phone -

he is a decent guy and has a love affair with the 305.  He had parts made that didn't exist anymore (specifically pistons etc.)

He has a SL350 I'd really like to get a hold of, but wants way too much for it.  I am sure it is a high offer as he would like to keep it for himself as well.

He's also rebuilt some of the nicest SOHC 4's I have seen.