Author Topic: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig  (Read 6946 times)

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Offline ofreen

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2009, 09:35:22 PM »
We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate.

After having my own kids, and observing many others, I stopped thinking that long ago.
Greg
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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2009, 02:43:36 AM »

Recently finished it, as a matter of fact.

No offense, mate, but I thought it was crap. A bunch of self-indulgent whining.

"I was so brilliant and pure and the establishment reprogrammed me, but now I'm free again. Blah, blah, blah."

The side story about a father & son on a cross country motorcycle trip was nice. Too bad there was all that narcissistic prattling in between.


 [/i]

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2009, 04:43:25 AM »
We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate.

After having my own kids, and observing many others, I stopped thinking that long ago.
No fair. I qualified the statement by saying "At least to an extent". Statements made with qualifiers should be kept together.

The context had to do with what had already been disclosed by the Greeks. Hard to know what that was by genetics. It would have to be read and learned.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2009, 04:53:26 AM »
Over my life, I've taken some interest in a couple of people I know, who are suffering from various psychoses, and something that I discovered a long time ago, (and is probably well known in medical circles) was that people with psyche problems, are often attracted to other people with psyche problems.

What seems like crap to "normal" people, can seem like the voice of God whispering the meaning of life into the ears of those with a screw or two loose. You've only got to look at Jonestown, or the Nazi's, the Manson family, or even The Church of Scientology to see that this is true.

When I was on vacation in Europe in 1974 I remember my Dad talking to an old German couple on a train to Munich, and the old guy told us about how he went to one of Hitler's rallies in Nuremberg, and couldn't believe what crap was coming out of Adolf's mouth, yet so many of Hitlers loyal followers were lapping up every word.

Ironically, the bloke who recommended ZAMM to me 29 years ago, a schoolteacher of over 30 years, recently had a nervous breakdown followed by a heart attack, when told that he'd have to return to school or be fired, after spending almost a year off work on "Stress Leave". Like some of the folk who so enjoy "Catcher in the Rye", he had read, and re-read ZAMM many times, and often quotes from it, like Jesus freaks quote from the bible.

So my personal belief is that not enjoying Pirsig's book isn't necessarily a sign of some lower form of intellect as some would infer, but rather, the sign of a healthy brain dismissing what it sees as self indulgent rambling and flawed analysis, with very little educational, or entertainment value. Cheers, Terry. ;D

« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:40:32 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline ofreen

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2009, 05:21:04 AM »
We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate.

After having my own kids, and observing many others, I stopped thinking that long ago.
No fair. I qualified the statement by saying "At least to an extent". Statements made with qualifiers should be kept together.

The context had to do with what had already been disclosed by the Greeks. Hard to know what that was by genetics. It would have to be read and learned.

Well, OK, but how is a slate blank "at least to an extent?"  It is either blank or it is not.  Rereading your post, it still doesn't seem that the second sentence is modifying the first.  The first sentence seems to be referring to the individual, the second referring to the environment.  But if you are saying that individual personality is influenced by both environment and an individual's physical and mental makeup, no argument there.
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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2009, 05:36:17 AM »
We all come into this world "tabula rasa". Blank Slate.

After having my own kids, and observing many others, I stopped thinking that long ago.
No fair. I qualified the statement by saying "At least to an extent". Statements made with qualifiers should be kept together.

The context had to do with what had already been disclosed by the Greeks. Hard to know what that was by genetics. It would have to be read and learned.

Well, OK, but how is a slate blank "at least to an extent?"  It is either blank or it is not.  Rereading your post, it still doesn't seem that the second sentence is modifying the first.  The first sentence seems to be referring to the individual, the second referring to the environment.  But if you are saying that individual personality is influenced by both environment and an individual's physical and mental makeup, no argument there.
Good point. So in my world, the slate would be divided. Part is pre-programmed with genetic tendencies, etc. Part is blank.

Other than that, I'll conclude "OK".   :D
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Offline MCRider

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2009, 06:50:32 AM »
Over my life, I've taken some interest in a couple of people I know, who are suffering from various psychoses, and something that I discovered a long time ago, (and is probably well known in medical circles) was that people with psyche problems, are often attracted to other people with psyche problems.

What seems like crap to "normal" people, can seem like the voice of God whispering the meaning of life into the ears of those with a screw or two loose. You've only got to look at Jonestown, or the Nazi's, the Manson family, or even The Church of Scientology to see that this is true.

When I was on vacation in Europe in 1974 I remember my Dad talking to an old German couple on a train to Munich, and the old guy told us about how he went to one of Hitler's rallies in Nuremberg, and couldn't believe what crap was coming out of Adolf's mouth, yet so many of Hitlers loyal followers were lapping up every word.

Ironically, the bloke who recommended ZAMM to me 29 years ago, a schoolteacher of over 30 years, recently had a nervous breakdown followed by a heart attack, when told that he'd have to return to school or be fired, after spending almost a year off work on "Stress Leave". Like some of the folk who so enjoy "Catcher in the Rye", he had read, and re-read ZAMM many times, and often quotes from it, like Jesus freaks quote from the bible.

So my personal belief is that not enjoying Pirsig's book isn't necessarily a sign of some lower form of intellect as some would infer, but rather, the sign of a healthy brain dismissing what it sees as self indulgent rambling and flawed analysis, with very little educational, or entertainment value. Cheers, Terry. ;D

SNIP
Terry: Personal beliefs are respected by me, hopefully I'm not suspected of inferring anything like a "lower form of intelligence". Opposing viewpoints may make me smarter, I accept them.

In my personal experience, I've often noticed that psychology majors strike me as in need of psychoanalysis. But I must remember that my personal experience is hardly a scientific sample.

Same with Hitler's audience. You did qualify your statement by saying "Hitler's loyal followers", nutjobs, whom i would also suggest represented the % of nutjobs in the general population, but in a concentrated place. When you can congeal and concentrate the nutjobs, and no one resists it, then you get problems. The general population was in temporary mass insanity, result of years of cultural depravation, but not nutjobs in the clinical sense, just numb. Hitlers Germany was the perfect storm. 

They wanted change... and were willing to give someone a chance.... hmmmm

There is this as well (well known in medical circles. perhaps): that which one rails against is often that which one fears most in themselves. Example being the evangelist (or Republican Senator) who rails against homosexuality and adultery, then gets caught with their pants down along with same.

ZAMM is a world widely highly successful book. I suspect the number of nutjobs attracted to it is roughly equivalent to the number of nutjobs in the general population. I don't need to defend it, and try not to, just discuss it. I'm perfectly happy to let one have their opinion, and just discuss the details.

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2009, 07:13:28 AM »
Oh, I freely admit I'm a little crazy, I think we all are in some form or another. Show me a 'normal person'. Normal, what is normal???
In my brief existence on this sphere the people I have encountered who were truly disturbed, 'not right in the head' thought they were perfectly sane and normal.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2009, 07:25:01 AM »
Oh, I freely admit I'm a little crazy, I think we all are in some form or another. Show me a 'normal person'. Normal, what is normal???
In my brief existence on this sphere the people I have encountered who were truly disturbed, 'not right in the head' thought they were perfectly sane and normal.
So true. Like the weather, normal is the average of extremes. Very seldom do we have a normal day.

I will be starting a thread "the lighter side of ZAMM" this weekend. I think what many of us (me included) miss in the book is more about motorcycling. There are many resources on the web documenting the trip with Pirsigs own pictures and comments.

How many of us have ever taken a 19 day trip on our bikes? I did 6 weeks in 1970, 3 weeks in 1980, and many 6 to 10 day trips. But the really long ones are rare.

I have the entire ZAMM route mapped out. (Its on the net). After I finish Phaedrus II, and Freebird II, I'll be working on my CB77. I'd like to take it on a 3 weeks out and back to San Francisco. I have family out there, so it would be cool. Take Highway 50 "Worlds Lonliest Highway" on the way back.

The 19 days was just the "out" trip. I have not been able to find the return trip. In the book, Pirsig suggested that he might sell his bike and fly home, but that likely did not happen as the bike was found in a barn near his home in Mpls. I have emailed various places with no response.

Another thing slightly disappointing to me is that there is no record of Pirsig ever riding again. Nor is it generally known where the bike is now.

This may seem a little obsessive but i submit. It is known that the popularity of spectator sports is that is a way for men to release emotional energy without consequence. In other words, meaningless.

And so it goes.   ;D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 07:34:12 AM by MCRider »
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Offline ofreen

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2009, 07:33:15 AM »
Show me a 'normal person'. Normal, what is normal???
That's easy -
Greg
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Offline pdxPope

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2009, 11:04:35 AM »
Quote
So my personal belief is that not enjoying Pirsig's book isn't necessarily a sign of some lower form of intellect as some would infer, but rather, the sign of a healthy brain dismissing what it sees as self indulgent rambling and flawed analysis, with very little educational, or entertainment value. Cheers, Terry. 

Jesus, Terry. Tell us what you really think.....

 ;D


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Offline Frankenkit

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2009, 12:08:17 PM »
Pff. I'm the first to admit I have a screw loose.
Actually, I think Terry makes some very good and valid points (if I would have bothered to quote them)  about crazies of a feather, and so on, or whatever.  When I was a kid, I felt very, very alone and misunderstood.  I'd tested to have a very high IQ (where is that now?!) and just didn't really understand the other kids.  Now that I'm in school, I keep running into people who had very, very similar experiences, and we all kind of bond over that feeling of a very lonely childhood, or being to certain degrees outcast or just not really understood.  Most of us are now functional adults with relative social lives, but we all remember parts of our youth quite well.  I think this is why I can definitely understand the concept of Phaedrus (though I don't think I ever fully separated into a separate personality)  and how he is always alone, even in company.

I think everyone has different experiences and a lot of people I've known really had a very different life than I have had, with very little real internal dialogue- mostly acting/reacting within the environment instead of in their heads. Extroverted instead of introverted, I suppose. Those are generally the people who don't get into psych books like this, or possibly the Dune series (which had me rapt since a young age I won't disclose) and there's nothing wrong with it. 
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2009, 01:26:09 PM »
Speaking of Paul Atreides....


"The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience."

:)

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2009, 01:50:00 PM »
I finally read Dune a while back, really liked it. Are the sequels as good as the first? Any ones I should avoid?
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2009, 02:04:41 PM »
I think that the first Dune novel was the best, the remainder of the original series is very good also though.  I was not so happy with the later books written by Brian Herbert.

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2009, 02:24:44 PM »
I read the first three before I knew there were others out (or that Brian was continuing them)  my favorites are God Emperor of Dune and Chapterhouse, I think.  I think I've read maybe 9 of the books?  Maybe more...  Frank's were probably the best, at least the most in-depth.  Read in the right frame of mind they're almost spiritual.  Brian weaves good stories, but they don't have the same near-biblical feel to them, if that makes any sense.  I used to want to be something like the bene gesserit were... the concept held me rapt through middle school.
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain. "

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 02:31:00 PM by Kit »
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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2009, 02:37:07 PM »
I read Zen and did a book report on it for my Technology, Society, and Human Values course during my senior year at college, that was 1980.

Still remember it as a great book, His comment on how the people in the old pickup truck with the old washing machine in the back would survive if our society collapsed, but his friend who did no work on his own motorcycle would not...or something to that effect, 29 year old memories are a funny thing.


Dune is one of the best, I alway subtitled it; The continuing adventures of Hebrews in space.

Offline pdxPope

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2009, 03:49:40 PM »

Loved Dune!
It was the first book I read straight through, cover to cover, in one sitting. Took me an entire Saturday, but I couldn't put it down.
The sequels didn't do too much for me, however.

The movies were ass.


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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2009, 03:56:52 PM »
Quote
So my personal belief is that not enjoying Pirsig's book isn't necessarily a sign of some lower form of intellect as some would infer, but rather, the sign of a healthy brain dismissing what it sees as self indulgent rambling and flawed analysis, with very little educational, or entertainment value. Cheers, Terry. 

Jesus, Terry. Tell us what you really think.....

 ;D

-JP


Ha ha, well I really think I shouldn't drink as much as I do, and then maybe I wouldn't ruffle the feathers of the Pirsig devotees with my drunken posts............. ;D

But I do have a piece of paper somewhere that declares that I'm legally sane, so I'm pretty sure that it's not my problem. ;)



  

    

I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline pdxPope

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2009, 04:32:45 PM »


 ;D



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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2009, 06:56:40 PM »
Terry: You drink?

I'm crushed.  >:(


 ;D
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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2009, 11:47:15 PM »
on reading more...
Pirsig is really kind of a dick to his kid. geez.
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2009, 05:12:27 AM »
Terry: You drink?

I'm crushed.  >:(


 ;D

Yeah mate, it's part of my own half-arsed philosophy, "I drink, therefore I am" ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline pdxPope

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2009, 06:55:31 AM »
Quote
"I drink, therefore I am"

Spoken like a true Aussie!  :D


Quote
Pirsig is really kind of a dick to his kid. geez.

Yeah Kit, as the father to a ten-year-old son, I had a really hard time with his parenting skills. Or lack thereof.  :-[
It was one of my big turnoffs to the book.

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Offline Tim in Ohio

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Re: "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance" by R L Pirsig
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2009, 07:10:36 AM »
I just kinda felt like Pirsig wouldn't be a fun guy to hang out with.  Kinda boorish.  If I am gonna take a long bike trip...  I'd rather be rolling with Jay Leno or Tim Allen.  Philosophy is cool, but small doses are plenty for me.  Kinda like the Lawrence Welk show, from when I was a kid... it didn't kill me to watch it once a week when grandma insisted on controlling the TV for that one indulgence she required... but that was plenty of the highbrow stuff for me.   ;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 10:21:58 AM by Tim in Ohio »
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