Author Topic: Batteryless ignition  (Read 4595 times)

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Offline bwaller

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Batteryless ignition
« on: February 15, 2009, 10:26:34 AM »
OK this is a 1978 XL175 which uses an AC generator and can run without a battery. There are three wires out of the stator and I only need one for power to ignition coil (no lights to power, no battery to charge)

What should I do with the other two wires? If there is no load on these will this be a problem?

Markcb750

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 03:35:21 PM »
Well TT

Here is an AC question for you to help with...



I don't think it can be done with out some magnets, like those in a magneto!

masonryman

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 04:17:45 PM »
Well I am no electro-magician but I think those three wires have to go to a rectifier to turn it in to D.C. before you can use it

Markcb750

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 04:22:58 PM »
Well, I don't think an alternator can make any juice with out energizing the field coils with some DC from a battery, don't think it matters how many wires or how they are connected.  Unless you can mount some permanent magnets on the rotor, and make a generator.

Help me out here TT or old English electronics professor.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 05:22:11 PM by Markcb750 »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 05:08:16 PM »
There's a lot I don't know about this particular bike,  The only info I have on it was the wire diagram I found here:
http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/WiringDiagrams/MCwiring.php#class

...and that is a copy from Clymer, whose reliability is dubious at best.

My assumption is that there is a permanent magnet in the alternator.  And, that you will still use the rectifier and regulator to operate the coil on DC (you'd better, or I won't give the condenser much of a life prognosis).

The clymer doesn't give me an alternator winding arrangement I recognize,  And further, they show a winding that is intentionally shorted.  It shows no connections to the frame reference for the alternator, so I assume there is none.  In person, I would check with a meter.

However, it looks like it will still make power, but you will need two AC connections to the rectifier for it to happen.  If I read the identifier colors correctly, that would be the yellow and pink wires from the alt to the rectifier.  And, leaving the Yellow/White wire disconnected (and insulated) should allow the system to "work".  But, I do not yet fully understand what purpose and function the "N" position on the headlight control serves.  Looks like it might increase the alternator output capability, but the diagram isn't clear just when the "N" position is achieved.

I still have the following concerns:
Without the battery to dampen/limit the voltage peaks, the survivability of the rectifier will depend on it's voltage withstand parameters, which are unknown to me.
Likewise, the regulator details and spec are unknown, so it's survivability to high voltage peaks or its ability to respond rapid input voltage changes, without the damping action of the battery impedance, is not predictable.
For longevity, I'd recommend a largish capacitor in place of the battery.

That's all I have without further info.

Cheers,

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 05:53:54 PM »


      Well folks, I posted this a while back, See if there is anything here that will help. Also check out the links listed in here. ;) I'll be watching to see if there is anything that will help me, as I am wanting to build a "Hybrid" out of part SL350/CL350.

      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=43433.0
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
 You CAN Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, Just Takes A Little Bit Longer & A Lot More Patience!! 
             
Main Rides: '02 Durango, '71 Swinger & Dad's '93
                  Dakota LE 4x4 '66 CB77 & '72 SL350K2
Watch What You Step Into, It Could  End Up A Mess!

masonryman

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 06:47:48 PM »
I have been back at the 550 a little, I am currently working on a new wiring harness, I had a very simple chopper/ bobber version saved but can not find it. I am sure I got it on this site, any ideas where I might find it again.

I'll release the kidnapped victoms at this time.

Mark

Offline scunny

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 06:49:33 PM »
kingcustom perhaps ?
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 06:52:51 PM »

       Hey Mark, good to see you back with the 550. Did ya get that Jag done or are you at the point that you can take a break? I still think that your exhaust system is pretty unique on that one! 8)

       Can't help with that wiring harness though, sorry.
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
 You CAN Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, Just Takes A Little Bit Longer & A Lot More Patience!! 
             
Main Rides: '02 Durango, '71 Swinger & Dad's '93
                  Dakota LE 4x4 '66 CB77 & '72 SL350K2
Watch What You Step Into, It Could  End Up A Mess!

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 07:05:50 PM »

       Here's another link that I don't think was in my previous post.

      http://waynescyclegarage.mysite.com/custom.html
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 07:20:13 PM by bill440cars »
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
 You CAN Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, Just Takes A Little Bit Longer & A Lot More Patience!! 
             
Main Rides: '02 Durango, '71 Swinger & Dad's '93
                  Dakota LE 4x4 '66 CB77 & '72 SL350K2
Watch What You Step Into, It Could  End Up A Mess!

Offline kirkn

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 06:26:05 AM »
Well, if I understand the original question - you don't need to do anything with the original wires.  Leave 'em disconnected.

One wire runs the ignition.  The other two wires are AC output and get rectified to DC to charge the battery and run all the various accessories.

If you don't have all those accessories, leave the wires disconnected.  No harm, no foul.

This bike will have a permanent magnet alternator.  No field coils to vary the strength of the alternator.  Single-phase output.  Very simple / primitive.


Offline bwaller

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 05:20:18 PM »
Thank-you kirkn and the rest also.

I rebuilt the engine for someone and eventually it ended up mine with a mostly rolling frame and two boxes of odd's n sod's. There was also a Clymer wiring diagram for a 78 model which is apparently only half complete.

It now is a like new (without battery & lights) dirt scoot for my nephew who has some challenges. His dad & I think it might be a good thing to help develop certain co-ordinations.

Offline bill440cars

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 06:42:02 PM »
Thank-you kirkn and the rest also.

I rebuilt the engine for someone and eventually it ended up mine with a mostly rolling frame and two boxes of odd's n sod's. There was also a Clymer wiring diagram for a 78 model which is apparently only half complete.

It now is a like new (without battery & lights) dirt scoot for my nephew who has some challenges. His dad & I think it might be a good thing to help develop certain co-ordinations.

          That's cool, good luck with your efforts, hope it helps him! ;)
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
 You CAN Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, Just Takes A Little Bit Longer & A Lot More Patience!! 
             
Main Rides: '02 Durango, '71 Swinger & Dad's '93
                  Dakota LE 4x4 '66 CB77 & '72 SL350K2
Watch What You Step Into, It Could  End Up A Mess!

billybobobrain

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2009, 06:47:09 PM »
Well, I don't think an alternator can make any juice with out energizing the field coils with some DC from a battery, don't think it matters how many wires or how they are connected.  Unless you can mount some permanent magnets on the rotor, and make a generator.

Help me out here TT or old English electronics professor.

My xl250 has magnets on the rotor. I would asume it is the same for the 175, mine is an 83.

Markcb750

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Re: Batteryless ignition
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2009, 07:05:18 PM »

My xl250 has magnets on the rotor. I would asume it is the same for the 175, mine is an 83.

Must be like a brushless DC motor. they only have three connecting wires also.  Interesting. If you short two legs together the motor will lock up.  Makes me think bwaller needs to ensure the two "extra" wires just need to capped and protected from grounding out.

Would be Interesting to know the voltage variation from idle to high RPM.