Author Topic: Furnace is crapping out...recommendations? (Read 2146 times)

Steve F · « **on:** February 20, 2009, 02:52:25 PM »

Well, it's time the old furnace meets it's maker (so to speak) and I'm shopping for a new one. Natural gas, in the 90+% effeciency range. I did some research on the internet, and so far, #1 looks like a Lennox, and #2 a Bryant. Anything else someone would care to comment on? What to stay away from?

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:10:40 PM »

We've had a Lennox 95% efficient model for quite a few years now, no problems. Well actually, there was a controller board issue when new, but it was recalled and replaced. No problems since then.

If you have not had one of these high efficiency models before, they are condensing furnaces, so some water has to be drained away. If it's not near a floor drain, you may have to have a small sump pump installed to carry it across to a sink or something. Avoid this if you can, they are noisy and tend not to last as long as the furnace.

Gordon · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:27:21 PM »

We've had a Goodman (90% efficiency) for three years now, and no problems to speak of.

Not exactly a long-term test, but hey, that's all I've got.

billybobobrain · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2009, 08:52:15 PM »

I have owned two heating companies and have worked on all the different brands, Trane is a little over rated, American Standard is identical to Trane, goodmans only last 7 or 8 years at altitudes above 4000 feet (sorry Gordon), Lennox.....I will give them credit for originality but out of all the respectable brands they have the most recalls, what would you expect from a company who put a jet engine in a furnace, 98% officiant, noisy as hell and tends to burn holes in heat exchangers! Lennox does not test there stuff nearly as much as they should. The first pick for me, and I know my stuff 20+ years in the business, 5 of those with my own company, get a RUUD, 94%+ eff. fully modulating furnace. If no one sells them were you are, buy a Trane xv90.

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2009, 02:58:20 AM »

Quote

and tends to burn holes in heat exchangers!

Better make sure I keep the CO detector working, eh?

gerhed · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2009, 04:02:32 AM »

Don't get a heat pump !
They're popular down here but on a really cold
day they tend to blow cold air !

tramp · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2009, 07:01:53 AM »

not a good thing in michigan then

mystic_1 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2009, 07:10:40 AM »

We had a Goodman installed last year, very happy with it so far. It's a 95% efficiency model.

Check with your tax preparer, there's often a tax credit for going with a 95% efficient furnace and/or air conditioner.

mystic_1

billybobobrain · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2009, 07:35:42 AM »

Quote from: gerhed on February 21, 2009, 04:02:32 AM

Don't get a heat pump !
They're popular down here but on a really cold
day they tend to blow cold air !

Heat pumps have come a long way but if it gets below 20 degrees regularly I agree. The only heat pump I have seen work well without a lot of maintinance is a Trane.

BobbyR · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2009, 07:50:43 AM »

I have had a York for almost 20 years. Last week I put in a new induction blower in the unit. That is all so far. I am not sure if York is as good as it was 20 years ago. I tended to stay away from hi tech furnaces. Too much to go wrong.

billybobobrain · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2009, 08:11:05 AM »

Quote from: BobbyR on February 21, 2009, 07:50:43 AM

I have had a York for almost 20 years. Last week I put in a new induction blower in the unit. That is all so far. I am not sure if York is as good as it was 20 years ago. I tended to stay away from hi tech furnaces. Too much to go wrong.

I dont think anything is as good as it was twenty years ago, however RUUD, and Trane are your best bet for longevity. York is not bad I haven't worked on a whole lot of them, so that says a lot.

heffay · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2009, 08:35:39 AM »

i don't remember the brand but the ranch i've been remodeling and working on for the past several years got a new 95%+ efficiency furnace.

the drain was routed to the outside of the house on the south side, by the installer... the furnace is in the attic and the drain went to just below the soffet and dumped to the outside.

now, southpark (where this ranch is) can be very very cold with brutal wind chills. the house usually sits empty over the winter with the heater at 50 degrees. the spring that i got back there to check on everything after the heater was installed was catastrophic. the outside of the house where the drain was located had completely buckled the 100+ year old wooden lap siding.

i relocated the drain to follow the wall down to just above floor level inside the house then took it outside... in case of a hard freeze i also ran a secondary drain into the big laundry room sink.

something got weird w/ the furnace too... it basically turned into a condenser instead of a heater (basically used its energy to over-produce condensate so much so that heat was greatly reduced)

anyway, it did freeze really hard, the outside drain froze, and it began to drain into the sink... except that the sewer line froze as well and on a mid-winter trip to check on everything i found water an inch from the top of the sink. THAT could have really been catastrophic. i raced to go buy two 55 gallon barrels to store the condensate until summer.

at that point, we took the 95% heater out and put in an 85% heater w/ no condensation. works extremely well and with the #$%* tons of money these folks have i'm sure the heating bill is the least of their worries.

so, if you get a condensing furnace... make sure the friggin' installer knows where to put a drain and what locales a condensing furnace should just not be used.

p.s... condensate water is acidic and should not be used for things such as drinking, bathing or washing dishes... in fact, it is suggested that it can also destroy plumbing over time as well.

billybobobrain · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2009, 08:44:08 AM »

Quote from: heffay on February 21, 2009, 08:35:39 AM

i don't remember the brand but the ranch i've been remodeling and working on for the past several years got a new 95%+ efficiency furnace.

the drain was routed to the outside of the house on the south side, by the installer... the furnace is in the attic and the drain went to just below the soffet and dumped to the outside.

now, southpark (where this ranch is) can be very very cold with brutal wind chills. the house usually sits empty over the winter with the heater at 50 degrees. the spring that i got back there to check on everything after the heater was installed was catastrophic. the outside of the house where the drain was located had completely buckled the 100+ year old wooden lap siding.

i relocated the drain to follow the wall down to just above floor level inside the house then took it outside... in case of a hard freeze i also ran a secondary drain into the big laundry room sink.

something got weird w/ the furnace too... it basically turned into a condenser instead of a heater (basically used its energy to over-produce condensate so much so that heat was greatly reduced)

anyway, it did freeze really hard, the outside drain froze, and it began to drain into the sink... except that the sewer line froze as well and on a mid-winter trip to check on everything i found water an inch from the top of the sink. THAT could have really been catastrophic. i raced to go buy two 55 gallon barrels to store the condensate until summer.

at that point, we took the 95% heater out and put in an 85% heater w/ no condensation. works extremely well and with the #$%* tons of money these folks have i'm sure the heating bill is the least of their worries.

so, if you get a condensing furnace... make sure the friggin' installer knows where to put a drain and what locales a condensing furnace should just not be used.

p.s... condensate water is acidic and should not be used for things such as drinking, bathing or washing dishes... in fact, it is suggested that it can also destroy plumbing over time as well.

+1 Also NEVER put a condensing furnace in the attic, in places where the tepuature is below 25 degrees, eventualy the drain in the attic can and will freeze inside the furnce, then the furnace will shut down and you will have to take an electric heater up there and thaw the darn thing out. If you have a 90+ furnace and are heating the attic with an electric heater, you might as well get an 80% furnace.

Steve F · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2009, 08:50:07 AM »

Thanks for all you replies. I was aware that the new condensing frunaces produced "water" and the basement sump pit is only 8 feet from the furnace so that's a plus. I was thinking that the noise factor from some of these new furnaces are going to be up there. I also heard that some furnaces have variable speed blowers and run most of the time at a lower speed or something to help combat the noise and to reduce furnace cycling. Is this true?
Also, since the current furnace has double duty as a central air unit, how would a variable speed blower work in this case? The current condenser coil is a "N" coil (not an "A" coil) which is shaped somethine like a "W" with one of the sides missing. Are these things standard size or am I going to have to have that changed too? I need to keep this project as economical as possible.
Thanks again,
Steve F

billybobobrain · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2009, 09:00:12 AM »

Quote from: Steve F on February 21, 2009, 08:50:07 AM

Thanks for all you replies. I was aware that the new condensing furnaces produced "water" and the basement sump pit is only 8 feet from the furnace so that's a plus. I was thinking that the noise factor from some of these new furnaces are going to be up there. I also heard that some furnaces have variable speed blowers and run most of the time at a lower speed or something to help combat the noise and to reduce furnace cycling. Is this true?
Also, since the current furnace has double duty as a central air unit, how would a variable speed blower work in this case? The current condenser coil is a "N" coil (not an "A" coil) which is shaped somethine like a "W" with one of the sides missing. Are these things standard size or am I going to have to have that changed too? I need to keep this project as economical as possible.
Thanks again,
Steve F

Variable speed furnace's help with the comfort level of your air conditioner as well, Both of my recommendations are variable speed. RUUD's Modulating furnace adjusts for air speed and gas flow it is the best out there, Trane's xv90 is only two speed but proven reliable. I have the xv90 in my house, only because I couldn't get a RUUD around here, and if no one sells a brand of furnace no one will have the right part if something goes wrong. My Trane has been in for 5+ years and I have only had to do cleaning and regular maintenance. As far as economical, you don't want to have a two bit hack put in your furnace because your furnace is only as good as the person who puts it in. If someone tells you a little over sized is best kick there sorry but out the door, if your furnace is two big it will "short cycle" just like stop and go traffic it will shorten the life of your furnace. I have seen furnaces that were over sized go out in less then 3 years. take your time and entertain 3 or more bids.

Steve F · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2009, 09:11:23 AM »

Well I hope there aren't any issues between now and the end of the heating season. So far, the furnace is functioning well, but it's over 28 years old

It's a Whirlpool, and still has all of the original stuff, including the blower. It's not very efficient, but gets the job done. This year during the annual vacuuming out, I noticed a slight smell of gas around the electric gas valve, you had to get really close to notice it, but none the less. So far there haven't been any issues with CO ( I have two CO detectors in the house) but just because of its' age, I'm concerned.
I'll try to locate a RUUD dealer/installer locally and look for competitive bids.
Thanks,
Steve F

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2009, 09:23:56 AM »

Quote from: Steve F on February 21, 2009, 08:50:07 AM

Thanks for all you replies. I was aware that the new condensing frunaces produced "water" and the basement sump pit is only 8 feet from the furnace so that's a plus.

When ours was first installed, we had the little sump pump installed and tubing that ran up and across the rafters to dump it into the laundry sink. Noisy little bugger! It finally died and a replacement was going to be $50 for the pump as I recall. We had finished part of the basement by this time so instead, I ran PVC from the furnace along the back of a wall and directly under a door entry into the laundry area. I beveled the edges of a 1x4 and cut it in half lengthwise and secured it on both sides of the PVC as it ran under the door to protect the piping. You don't even notice it.

Gordon · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2009, 04:31:51 PM »

Quote from: billybobobrain on February 20, 2009, 08:52:15 PM

goodmans only last 7 or 8 years at altitudes above 4000 feet (sorry Gordon),

Well that's perfect! We only planned on owning this house for 5 or 6 years anyway!

eldar · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2009, 06:26:19 AM »

So how much have the units been running you? Are you propane or nat gas? I use propane and it has been pretty nice but the furnace is quite old and I might need to replace it in a couple years.

heffay · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2009, 07:16:24 AM »

eldar... that brings up another good point... for those that are unaware, i imagine most of us here are aware though.

propane units must be re-jetted for natural gas and vice versa.

eldar · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2009, 07:36:37 AM »

Yes they must. 2 different fuels.

KARamsay · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:05:43 AM »

Highlights of the tons of good advice:
Trane is pretty much industry standard (I have an off brand that is compatible trane parts)
95% you can get tax breaks on (at least last year)
Watch the drain routings They are important

Also - the new stuff does not work if your power is off.
I had a few issues with a vacuum safetly (pressure) switch - I just jumpered it to get the heat on until the switch could be replaced. Know the system - in case you have an issue!

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:08:49 AM »

Quote from: KARamsay on February 23, 2009, 08:05:43 AM

Also - the new stuff does not work if your power is off.

Same goes for most of the new, pilotless hot water heaters, but I guess the gas savings are worth it. We rarely lose power here.. well of course we will now that I have said that. $:-\$

Gordon · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:18:22 AM »

Quote from: KARamsay on February 23, 2009, 08:05:43 AM

Also - the new stuff does not work if your power is off.
I had a few issues with a vacuum safetly (pressure) switch - I just jumpered it to get the heat on until the switch could be replaced. Know the system - in case you have an issue!

+1

Our heat went out a few weeks ago, on one of the coldest nights this Winter of course (well below zero). It wasn't a furnace issue, though. The circuit that the furnace is on is controlled by a switch on the basement kitchen wall. A fact I wasn't aware of until this incident. The 40-50 year old switch blew out leaving us without heat until I could replace the switch the next day.

Steve F · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:02:12 AM »

Quote from: Gordon on February 23, 2009, 08:18:22 AM

Quote from: KARamsay on February 23, 2009, 08:05:43 AM
Also - the new stuff does not work if your power is off.
I had a few issues with a vacuum safetly (pressure) switch - I just jumpered it to get the heat on until the switch could be replaced. Know the system - in case you have an issue!

+1

Our heat went out a few weeks ago, on one of the coldest nights this Winter of course (well below zero). It wasn't a furnace issue, though. The circuit that the furnace is on is controlled by a switch on the basement kitchen wall. A fact I wasn't aware of until this incident. The 40-50 year old switch blew out leaving us without heat until I could replace the switch the next day.

Soooooo, I'm assuming that you rewired the furnace to the circuit box sans switch?

News:

Author Topic: Furnace is crapping out...recommendations? (Read 2146 times)

billybobobrain

billybobobrain

billybobobrain

billybobobrain

billybobobrain

eldar

eldar

KARamsay