Topic: Question to TwoTired about 4Way Flashers!

[charlevoix418]

Hello,

Dan, a member of the group kindly answered my "non-electrician" questions about installing 4Way Flashers on my CB350F.  He refers to TwoTired in his answer:  can you review it an bring your comments?  I don't want to burn my electrical system!

Many thanks,
Raynald

Quote from Dan:

Hi, Raynald

Sorry, I had lost track of the thread.   I was hoping TwoTired (the resident electrical guru) would chime in and verify whether or not it was possible. My only concern is if the flasher relay can handle the load of 4 bulbs at once instead of 2, but if you have a newer automotive flasher it should be OK. I'm not as good with electrical as he is, so you might want to run all this by him and get a second opinion, as I have not personally performed this mod, but I would like to eventually on my CB750.

Essentially, what you are trying to accomplish would be if you could have your turn signal switch on R and L at the same time. The only extra wiring you'd have to do would be in the headlight bucket (if that's where you wanted to locate the switch).

Check out OldManHonda's interactive wiring diagrams at http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/wiring350F.html. Switch off all parts of the system diagram except the right and left turn signals and that will show you only the parts of the wiring you'll need to worry about.

Without a schematic handy, the best way I can describe how it works is to take us through the wiring. The system gets the power from the bike's power buss- the solid black wire that it connected to the battery through the key switch. This has a constant 12V from the battery. This connects to the turn signal relay. The relay rhythmically turns this voltage on and off, and sends these pulses out through the gray wire attached to the relay. (the relay is located on the electrical tray under the seat, or close to there- I don't own a 350) This gray wire runs up to the headlight bucket where it attaches to the left-hand handlebar control pod that contains the turn signal switch. The switch connects the gray wire to the orange wire (for a left turn) or to the light blue wire (for a right turn). the orange and light blue wires go back to their respective turn signals and back to ground through the frame.

You would want a switch that could connect the gray wire to the orange and light blue wire at the same time. You could use a double pole/double throw switch to accomplish this, with the gray wire connected to the two center terminals and the orange and blue wires connected to the end terminals. (I can try to sketch this, as it will be much clearer). The only thing I'm not sure about is how the turn signal light on the dash will behave, as it looks to be connected to both signals.

Do you have an e-mail address I can send a drawing to? I can draw out what I'm talking about and add it to the wiring diagram. Hopefully it will make more sense that way.

-Dan Jones(y)

[TwoTired]

Dan has the right idea.

You are going to need a flasher that is load insensitive, so it flashes at a rate using it's own time base, rather than the heating time required to bend it's own bi metallic strip, such as the stock one employs.

The replacement flasher unit will almost certainly have three terminals which will connect to the Black (power, or battery POS), Grey, (pulsed output) and Green (battery NEG).

Then you need a switch that connects the Gray wire to both the Orange and Light blue wires.  A double pole single throw switch should accomplish this (A double throw will also work without using the two extra terminals).  It will bypass the bar control.  The gray wire will go to both poles of the switch and O and LB wires would go to the other end of the poles on the switch.

The dash turn signal lamp will not illuminate with this modification, as both of it's leads will be connected to the same power source when the flasher and added switch are both activated.

Cheers,

[fmctm1sw]

You are going to need a flasher that is load insensitive, so it flashes at a rate using it's own time base, rather than the heating time required to bend it's own bi metallic strip,

I learn something new here every day.  This is no doubt why my flashers go crazy when I connect a trailer to my van...

[Jonesy]

Thanks, TwoTired for the verification (and the sanity check!).

There are now two-prong electronic flashers available that are not load dependent, and they are a drop-in replacement. I have one on my 750 and it works great.

Here's what we're talking about:



After looking at it, It may be even easier to wire a single pole switch between the wires going to the signal light in the dash. That way, you use the turn signal switch to activate the flashers, and the added switch to switch on all 4...

[mark]

.........
The replacement flasher unit will almost certainly have three terminals which will connect to the Black (power, or battery POS), Grey, (pulsed output) and Green (battery NEG).
.........

I had to poke around a bit to find a 3 wire flasher diagram:

"Notes:

    * All switches are used with three prong flashers marked, (X) = power, (L) = Load, (P) = Pilot
    * Flasher and flasher connector are not included with switches. Use no. 9186 connector assembly when required. "
(Signal-Stat 800 series)

then found another:

('67 Scout)

If I walk into the parts store and ask for a 3-prong flasher, I expect to be handed this one.

If I plug the green wire on to one of these, something will likely fry, right?

When the flasher on the 550 quit, I put on a newfangled electronic 2-prong flasher - and let the green wire hang just like the folks at the factory did. The extra wire doesn't bother me.


Happy trails.

[TwoTired]

I never said ALL 3 pin flashers would work, nor implied that was the only criteria for selection.  There must be hundreds of different types out there with different pin-outs and connection/load requirements/expectations. Thats' why if you walk into a store you can find several to choose from, each meeting different requirements.
Euro Hondas used 3 pin flashers, and that is why the harness has that green wire ready to connect to it.

Here is a three terminal type with the connection needs I described.  It didn't take long to find it.
http://www.bl-led.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=118

As demonstrated in above posts, if you search for the wrong one, or don't tell the parts counter man what your needs are, you'll probably get the wrong one. 

Also, I see no issue with using the two terminal one, if indeed it is load insensitive.  There are also flashers that change their flash rate if a bulb goes out, as they still sense the load placed upon them.  I don't know what these two prong flashers will do if you double the load.

Lot's of different flashers out there.  Nobody is talking part numbers here.  All two prong flashers are not the same.  All three prong flashers are not the same.

Below is a chart with pin label codes used on flasher units. Note the one I referenced above had pin labels  B(49)-Battery, L(49a)-Load, E(31)-Ground

When you go to store, get a flasher that has the connections you need for the purpose you intend.

Cheers,

[mark]

<AHA! moment>

49.. 49a.. 31.. Them's Bosch numbers! A Volksie blinker!(or a Bimmer blinker, but that has pins not tabs)

It seems that someone at Honda had an attack of "the clevers".

They must have figured that nobody would ever go to the dealer for a Genuine Replacement blinker, and fitted something likely to be available locally. Bosch blinkers for the Europeans, and that little square Signal-Stat thingy for us Yanks.

The last time I got stuck actually buying a flasher - road trip in the van, borrowed trailer, lights going crazy - I stopped at that very convenient Flying 'J' truck stop near Redding. Back in the corner by the john, they had a wall of CB gear and radar detectors, and a row of lights and bulbs and fuses and..... two different fancy gee-whiz electronic flashers. Choice of two prongs or three. Either would flash 1 to 25(!) bulbs at a constant rate. I got the 2 prong for the van and off we went. It works great in the 550 now that the van is gone(damn deer). It is a bulky round thing, so it hangs from the rubber mount by a couple of zip-ties.
Had I been driving the truck(or the Scout) instead of the van, I would have bought the 3-prong with the expectation that it would work.


... never mind the Scout only uses 2 of the 3 wires. hmm.


"I never said ALL 3 pin flashers would work, nor implied that was the only criteria for selection....."
no. what you said was....
"The replacement flasher unit will almost certainly have three terminals which will connect to the Black (power, or battery POS), Grey, (pulsed output) and Green (battery NEG)."
and that isn't necessarily a safe assumption to make, on this continent.
Sure, there are lots of different bimetal flashers out there, but I am willing to ignore those for their numerous flaws and recommend the solid-state variety. These seem to come in three flavors... 2-prong, three prong(ours), and three prong(theirs). I like the odds better with the 2-prong flasher, that's all.
I have decades of experience dealing with parts store guys and know that if given a choice, he will hand me 'b' when I need 'a' - every time(exception - when he thinks 'c' is the part but it isn't in stock and costs twice as much). I hereby recommend the two prong electronic flasher for Honda CBs. and that's more than enough about flashers.

 

now, the original subject.......

If the intent is to have all the signals flash while riding down the road, a single pole/single throw(s.p.s.t.) switch connected between blue and orange will do that... close switch, turn signal switch to either side and all except indicator will flash.... when the key is on... electronic flasher doesn't care if 2 or 4 bulbs, btw.

I don't really see the point to riding down the road with all the lights flashing and the little dummy horn squealing but to each his own, I guess.

If the intent is to flash the lights and blare the buzzer with the bike parked and the key off, this could probably be achieved with a double pole/single throw(d.p.s.t.) switch and a diode:

This connects the two sides together, and powers the flasher circuit without backfeed to the ignition.
I'd give the battery about a half-hour or so.

 


Happy trails.

[TwoTired]

"I never said ALL 3 pin flashers would work, nor implied that was the only criteria for selection....."
no. what you said was....
"The replacement flasher unit will almost certainly have three terminals which will connect to the Black (power, or battery POS), Grey, (pulsed output) and Green (battery NEG)."
and that isn't necessarily a safe assumption to make, on this continent.

That wasn't an assumption, it was a specification to guide the buyer to select the correct component for the task.

On the advise that the correct flasher type would be difficult to find in the US, I wandered over to the closest auto parts store to my house, here in California.  It happens to be a Kragen, promising cheap pricing.
There on the wall were 11 flasher types.
3 were the 3 pin type which had the correct pinout designators and were labeled "electronic", stating the number of bulbs tolerated for intended use.
2 were 3 pin type which had the incorrect pinout designators, 1 was thermal, 1 was electronic.
2 were four pin elect.
1 was 5 pin elect.
2 were 2 pin thermal
1 was 2 pin elect.

So the odds were 3 in 4, you'd buy the right 3 pin elec. flasher at this store.
1 in 4, you'd buy the wrong elect. 3 pin flasher at this store.

I fail to see the problem in finding a flasher for the stated modification, whether it be 3 pin or 2 pin.  Most certainly, you need to know what to look for in either case.
And, if you don't want to think about it, just follow Mike Nixon's outline for the mod and use the flasher he specifies. 
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/hazards.html

FYI, I don't recommend adding terminals to the battery post because of the corrosion likely to occur, if not on the terminal, on the wire junction to the terminal.  A better power tap location would be the on the solenoid post, father away from battery chemicals.

Can't help but wonder how much longer this thread will linger. 

Cheers,