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Offline pddpimp

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Drag bike build questions...
« on: March 01, 2009, 12:04:17 PM »
Just starting to learn this drag bike stuff...

What mods to the front and rear sprockets are needed to run a wider rim (5")?
Or do you offset the rim to the right?
Is a tensioner needed on a longer chain (6" extended swingarm)?
When running shorter forks, what would you do for the springs?


Thanks...
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline 754

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 12:18:28 PM »
Are you running street or Strip only.

if strip only you might cheap out and move the wheel over , it is not ideal, but could be an option.

Otherwise Cycle X (I think) sells offset countershaft sprockets, you can space rear or run 77/78 carrier. I ran 17/54 with excellent results.. great for 1/8 mile.(or coff, coff, street race)

 Forks, slide em up or cut em down.. 77/78 trees allow more room to slide up but if you dont mod steering stops, it will likely hit the tank. ( my advice is to run 40W or very heavy fork oil.. sux on the street, but helps it to react quicker). You may drop to the max for strip, and raise to ride on street. Lower bike cuts wind better.. better ET.

I ran 6 over, adding slider blocks would have helped, it moves a lot after a bit of wear happens. I would suggest 5 or 5.5 otherwise you cant run bigger rear sprocket with 120 link chain. Yes you can buy roll or get longer, but harder to find in my opinion.
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Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 03:17:14 PM »
It'll be strip only...Maybe  8).

I have a '76 K frame that will do some mods to. I do plan on dropping it as low as possible. I have a '77 tree assy, also.

Sounds like good reasoning for a shorter, 5" swing arm (in the middle of machining the parts for one that is based off the '77-'78 model). 

What material would be used to build a slider?

I plan on using a basically stock motor to get used to the set up, before putting some power to the chassis.

At what point would you suggest using wheelie bars?

What do you think of air shifters?

Thanks for the reply.
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline 754

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2009, 08:11:23 PM »
Slider material, Try UHMW or other plastic. I didnt use em but will next time.

 I meant stay a bit under 6 over 76 or earlier swingarm ..late one is an inch or so longer already.

 You wont need a wheelie  bar, they are a pita anyway. Bikes are running 7 or 8 sec or quicker with no wheelie bars..

 Get a really good clutch.. I always liked Barnett , but am thinking of trying APE if I can get it up here for reasonable cost.

 I did not use air shifter. Take a look at Holeshot Performance he has them , or ignition interrupters..

.............................................................................

Note on the clutch,
people will tell you about all the ill manners they can have, but you got to decide.. good manners on street, or works well at the track..
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 08:50:49 PM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2009, 08:16:38 PM »
Just starting to learn this drag bike stuff...

What mods to the front and rear sprockets are needed to run a wider rim (5")?
Or do you offset the rim to the right?
Is a tensioner needed on a longer chain (6" extended swingarm)?
When running shorter forks, what would you do for the springs?


Thanks...


Offset depends on the rim, and it's carrier. Usually try to keep the wheel as center as possible.

Tensioner isn't necessarily needed unless you don't check chain before every run. (i usually do)

Shorter forks will determine the needs of the spring. Are you using a stock front end? I tend to strap my fronts down, but I ride street also.

754 you drag???? Where have I been????
'48 HD Panhead - Exxon Valdez
'78 CB550K - Fokker CB.3
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Offline Don R

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2009, 08:35:32 PM »
I think forking by frank sells shorter forks. I was thinking of building one for the automatic. I hear they are very consistent. I have raked the neck to lower mine and went 4" over on the swing arm. what rear rim are you using?
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Offline 754

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2009, 08:46:15 PM »
havoc, I bracket raced years ago. I still build partsand help out out on the odd bike. Sort of sponsered  a buddy a few times.

got tired of the money pit aspect..
 played a bit in vintage dirt racing on tiddlers and a 750 with sidecar a few times.

.. would like to ride street more, but have a streetracing problem... nowadays they can do all kinds of crap (like take your bike :o)..gotta watch it out there... but its soooooo harrrrddd to not race off a light..

 So, slam, it stretch it, run a bit of baffle, let the other guy get the ticket.. ;)
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 03:47:42 AM »
I think forking by frank sells shorter forks. I was thinking of building one for the automatic. I hear they are very consistent. I have raked the neck to lower mine and went 4" over on the swing arm. what rear rim are you using?


I have an 18" x 5.5" Akront spoked wheel.
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2009, 03:51:23 AM »
Just starting to learn this drag bike stuff...

What mods to the front and rear sprockets are needed to run a wider rim (5")?
Or do you offset the rim to the right?
Is a tensioner needed on a longer chain (6" extended swingarm)?
When running shorter forks, what would you do for the springs?


Thanks...


Offset depends on the rim, and it's carrier. Usually try to keep the wheel as center as possible.

Tensioner isn't necessarily needed unless you don't check chain before every run. (i usually do)

Shorter forks will determine the needs of the spring. Are you using a stock front end? I tend to strap my fronts down, but I ride street also.

754 you drag???? Where have I been????

Well, I did some measureing last night and it looks like I'll just need an offset front sprocket. That makes life easier. I will be using a stock front end...What do you mean by "strap my front end down"? (I may be looking too deep into your comment)



Thanks...
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline buffalogt750

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2009, 08:14:17 AM »
To shorten forks the free and easy way, without having several inches of unattractive fork tube sticking above your triple trees, simply cut the main spring however much you want to shorten fork and put the cut off piece on the bottom where the short spring is that keeps the forks from clunking when they top out. If you look at a parts list for forks such as on bikebandit.com you can see where the the short spring is. Grind the cut off springs as flat as you can and use a heavier oil. The bike pictured has had forks shortened this way on it for twenty years, many 1/4 mile passes and lots of street miles with no problems. Chain tensioner not necessary, just keep it adjusted. Wheelie bars not necessary with an extended swing arm. Air shifter makes bike easy to ride and much more consistent. Make the bike barely street legal. It sucks having to trailer it just to ride it.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2009, 09:19:11 AM »
You literally mount straps to your forks to compress them.

Dropping the front of your bike and keeping it there.
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Offline NitroHunter

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2009, 12:22:35 PM »
I have a bit of dragbike experience from back in the day, so here's my 2 cents.
What 754 said works, it's what we all did.

'Strapping' the front end down is basically taking a tie strap and cinching the fork brace to the tree, compressing the forks to where they don't allow 'rebound' extension on the launch. The idea is to transfer weight to the rear tire when it needs it most. I've seen it done in the past with good results, especially on high torque bikes. Things like air fork caps run at decent pressure will stiffen the forks, and the heavy oil in the forks don't allow them to extend as quickly.

I machined tubing 2" long to use under the dampening rod (I think?) that made the forks OAL shorter.  I cut the springs down some as well. It was pretty common back in the day; it worked, my forks are shorter, the bike got lower, and I had no issues.

Struts as a replacement for rear shocks will allow you to drop the tail dramatically, aids in weight transfer, and they are much lighter. The tendency of a rear suspension is to 'squat' when power is applied to the rear wheel. Look at a good bracket car, the tail will raise when they launch. Energy isn't being wasted. Until you get into VERY high horsepower, weight transfer issues are primarily limited to the launch and first 60 feet.
When using struts, there is no swing arm movement so your chain length is a constant, of course allow for adjustment. The stock type adjuster section worked with a lengthened swing arm, at least I didn't have issues in several applications.

Modern motorcycle drag tires have a much more squared off sidewall than those of the past, you get as much foot print with a 7" tire now as you did with the old 8-1/2". I had no clearance issues running the 7" tire but it was tight. I used an ('ultra duty') double row drive bearing and F-2 solid output shaft, they're machined to take the wider bearing. Don't remember if those fit a 'K' case, but you can get a beefy bearing for it.

Removing weight gives a better horsepower to weight ratio, allowing quicker acceleration. Removing things like the electric starter and running a smaller, lighter battery are simple.
Remove as much rotating mass out as you can. Using light wheels, drilled rotors, eliminate alternator (or use a lightened one) these are where your largest gains in acceleration come from.
A GOOD 520 chain will withstand plenty of abuse. As far as the length, just bite the bullet $$ and get what you need. Of course be careful when installing the master link clip, and if you dab some silicone sealer behind it, it will not come off. At least I've never seen it happen when done this way.

I've made offset sprockets by machining an old one as a spacer, then welding them together. This wasn't as easy as it sounds. I can tell you they're harder than the hubs of hell, and carbide inserts don't look brand new when you're done. And you're very limited in offset due to shiftdrum linkage interference.

I'm not sold anymore on such low ground clearance - even though MY bike only had 2" of it. Many of the old school funny bikes had plenty of it. In my opinion, there are better methods of aerodynamic control. Bonneville has shown that 15 HP can produce 100 MPH. However, the stance is #$%*in and people DO notice that.

Air shifters are wonderful. You never miss a shift and it happens VERY quickly. I still have one on my street bike, it doesn't interfere with normal foot shifting. At the strip it's no big deal to refill the air bottle, you can make a couple runs between fills. I believe NHRA sanctioned series require a certified pressure vessel, so check that out before a making a purchase.

Wheelie bars can be great, they can give you confidence in your launches. If you like the looks of them, then get a set. Do you really need them? The very good, really fast outlaw pro street guys don't use them, but myself I prefer them.
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Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2009, 01:11:25 PM »
To shorten forks the free and easy way, without having several inches of unattractive fork tube sticking above your triple trees, simply cut the main spring however much you want to shorten fork and put the cut off piece on the bottom where the short spring is that keeps the forks from clunking when they top out. If you look at a parts list for forks such as on bikebandit.com you can see where the the short spring is. Grind the cut off springs as flat as you can and use a heavier oil. The bike pictured has had forks shortened this way on it for twenty years, many 1/4 mile passes and lots of street miles with no problems. Chain tensioner not necessary, just keep it adjusted. Wheelie bars not necessary with an extended swing arm. Air shifter makes bike easy to ride and much more consistent. Make the bike barely street legal. It sucks having to trailer it just to ride it.



The fork mod sounds easy enough.
If that bike is yours, it's very nice. That's the look I'm going for.
Thanks for the info.
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2009, 01:39:23 PM »


Things like air fork caps run at decent pressure will stiffen the forks, and the heavy oil in the forks don't allow them to extend as quickly.

Ahh...cool. I just happen to have an old pair of air fork caps. Great idea!



Struts as a replacement for rear shocks will allow you to drop the tail dramatically, aids in weight transfer, and they are much lighter. The tendency of a rear suspension is to 'squat' when power is applied to the rear wheel. Look at a good bracket car, the tail will raise when they launch. Energy isn't being wasted. Until you get into VERY high horsepower, weight transfer issues are primarily limited to the launch and first 60 feet.
When using struts, there is no swing arm movement so your chain length is a constant, of course allow for adjustment. The stock type adjuster section worked with a lengthened swing arm, at least I didn't have issues in several applications.

Yeah, I plan on building some adjustable struts in order to tune in the rear suspension. I used to drag race cars, so I understand the reasoning behind the adjustments.

Modern motorcycle drag tires have a much more squared off sidewall than those of the past, you get as much foot print with a 7" tire now as you did with the old 8-1/2". I had no clearance issues running the 7" tire but it was tight. I used an ('ultra duty') double row drive bearing and F-2 solid output shaft, they're machined to take the wider bearing. Don't remember if those fit a 'K' case, but you can get a beefy bearing for it.

Great info here, Thanks!



I'm not sold anymore on such low ground clearance - even though MY bike only had 2" of it. Many of the old school funny bikes had plenty of it. In my opinion, there are better methods of aerodynamic control. Bonneville has shown that 15 HP can produce 100 MPH. However, the stance is #$%*in and people DO notice that.

Yeah, the stance is rad....That's all that matters, right?

Air shifters are wonderful. You never miss a shift and it happens VERY quickly. I still have one on my street bike, it doesn't interfere with normal foot shifting. At the strip it's no big deal to refill the air bottle, you can make a couple runs between fills. I believe NHRA sanctioned series require a certified pressure vessel, so check that out before a making a purchase.

I was wondering if the air shifters allowed you to shift normally.

Wheelie bars can be great, they can give you confidence in your launches. If you like the looks of them, then get a set. Do you really need them? The very good, really fast outlaw pro street guys don't use them, but myself I prefer them.

Yeah, I won't NEED them. But, it's added security and looks cool, too. The cost isn't really an issue. I can build almost anything for the bike at work, so the build cost is cut down to just material :)

When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2009, 01:41:37 PM »
You guys are full of great info!!

I'm going to have to throw you a BIG thanks...


THANKS!!
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline 754

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2009, 07:31:25 PM »
I did not think too much about lowering till I replaced my tuned length Hooker 4-1 with an Unequal length turbo header (smaller primaries and some pipes are 2wice as long as others)
 
this let me lower the bike another 3 or more inches and gave me 3 tenths..

 I have used wheelie bars,
first you gotta get or make them..

Then you got to put them on, and  in  a lot of cases take em off every day..

then you trip over them in the pits..

They can hang up loading a bike if you leave them on..

 in short.. why use them if you dont need them..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2009, 07:37:17 PM »

 
...this let me lower the bike another 3 or more inches and gave me 3 tenths.
Ha! That sounds like it help you a lot. That would be nice for me, too. But as it's known, what works for one doesn't always work for all.  :)


then you trip over them in the pits..
This one made me laugh...I here what you're saying though.


When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2009, 07:50:42 PM »


This is the look or style I'm going for.
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline 754

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2009, 07:57:48 PM »
Try to find or build a sidewinder header, but they are very rare.

failing that use a highpipe, like the turbo one I use (without turbo).. have to cut the sidestand mount off the frame.. to do so I use a stand that mount off a rear peg.. more on that if you get down that low...


 just sayin that bike in the pic need to tilt that headlight.. look a lot better..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Don R

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 12:40:13 AM »
Most of the kawi's I see at the track have a header that has short primarys and the collector in front of the engine with a single long secondary going back. Is that a sidewinder? They use the pipe for a sidestand. Not so good for a corner though. Similar to what I am putting together but I did rake the neck a little to get it lower. I found a cherry K3 gas tank in my brothers garage, I took it home for safe keeping. no plan on a seat yet though. I also have a 75 f tank with a king and queen seat but boy is that seat ugly. Thinking of cutting it up.
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Offline 754

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2009, 07:23:25 AM »
Pipe in the  Suz pic is a sidewinder.

I used a stock tank with 6in arm and a Kawi tail piece, then you got to make a seat. Top of my tire is about as high as the frame rail at rear fender mounts.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2009, 07:42:54 AM »
Pipe in the  Suz pic is a sidewinder.

I used a stock tank with 6in arm and a Kawi tail piece, then you got to make a seat. Top of my tire is about as high as the frame rail at rear fender mounts.

The pipe looks awesome. I have a pipe that is very similar to the Sidewinder, but my collector is located at the clutch cover. I've been collecting parts to build my own pipe in case I decide to change what I have. Been looking at a Kawi tail piece, too. Gotta love the look of this style bike.
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character

Offline NitroHunter

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2009, 08:33:41 AM »
There's some interesting exhaust system calculators online - just punch in the numbers and and get your mind boggled. Most supported the smaller diameter head tubes, but of course there were many variables to play with that changed exact dimensions.
When you can use the pipe for a kick stand - now THAT's dragbike cool!
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2009, 10:06:32 AM »
out of curosity, what class of racing and what organization are you planning to run this bike in? Most drag classes have rules as to wheelbase, ride height, suspension mods, etc.....

you don't just throw a bike together and try to find a class after you think it looks right, you find a class and you build the bike to meet that spec.

There are plenty of bracket street bike classes out there that sound close to how you want the bike setup but some of those street classes require you to also have street gear and forgo fancy electronics like a two step rev limiter or a lockup clutch. Other classes may not have required gear in the rules but you can't be competitive without it.

If you are going to use a stock motor for your first outing - I recommend you look at indexed bracket classes and what rules there are for them. you may be surprised at what you need to do. Even the tires are regulated and you may find that no strip will let you pass tech with a bike that is built to just "look right"

Additionally, since you are not modding the motor right away I suggest you go out there and find a 1978 motor (or at least a good bottom end). It has a stronger output shaft and a wider spacing that will let you run a 5" rear rim with minimal spacing (in chops, guys have gotten up to a 180 to fit with stock sprocket carriers and 530 sprockets - stock is 630). I had a 5" on a kosman rear hub and rc swingarm and the 78 bottom end needed no spacing to work.

Another thing i would think about is the wheelbase. Any tire you can shoehorn on to a 5" rim is not going to clear a stock swingarm and frame (I think 150 is about the limit). In drag racing you want a longer swingarm (not a shorter one as I saw you mentioned earlier) so you might want to look at a DOHC cb750 arm which can take a really wide rim. If you can try to get an F arm so you can use a 75-76 rear disc hub and save the weight of a heavy drum. But you should also look at the rule book and make sure you are not going over the wheelbase restrictions.

finally, get an ECTA or SCTA rule book as well and compare the bracket class to an LSR class. If you can, it would be nice to build a bike that works with both rule books and then you have increased the bikes overall usefulness.
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Offline pddpimp

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Re: Drag bike build questions...
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2009, 10:19:25 AM »
Well, no class racing here. I like to build things just to see how fast I can get them. Someday I might consider class racing, but for now I'm just going out to have fun. I totally forgot about a DOHC swing arm. I building a swing arm at work and it looks like it'll be 5 1/2" over stock '76, which is the frame I have lying around. I've been looking for a F hub, but they're getting harder to find.

I have 3 spare engines, '76, '77, and '78. It sounds like I'm in luck.  ;)
When the majority of the United States population get to be 70 years old, they will finally realize what is really important. And by then it'll be too late.


-'77 CB750 Cafe/Muscle bike (early clone)
Soon to have a hopped up 836cc *sold*

-'75 CB750 with a little bit of character