Author Topic: A Plug question  (Read 8270 times)

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Offline FLo

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A Plug question
« on: March 01, 2009, 11:10:32 PM »
Just wondering what plugs I should be using for my 78 cb550k.  Old Bike Barn suggests the D7EA.  However, the PO installed a dyna-s and 3ohm coils and used NGK iridiums DR7eix.  From doing some research, I gathered that the "r" stands for resistors.  Do I need an "r" model plug?  Which one would you recommend?  What are the pro's and con's for each model?


Offline TwoTired

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 12:06:12 AM »
The stock bike had resistors in the plug caps (about 5K ohms), and very tiny resistance in the spark plug leads.  If your replacement wire/boots don't have any resistance, then you should have resistor spark plugs.
Are you using resistance wire and resistor spark plug boots?

Separate question:
How do you keep the battery charged up with the increased power draw from 3 ohm coils and that dyna-s?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 05:41:00 AM »
The stock bike had resistors in the plug caps (about 5K ohms), and very tiny resistance in the spark plug leads.  If your replacement wire/boots don't have any resistance, then you should have resistor spark plugs.
Are you using resistance wire and resistor spark plug boots?

Separate question:
How do you keep the battery charged up with the increased power draw from 3 ohm coils and that dyna-s?

Cheers,

Thanks TwoTired,  how do I check if the wire/boots have any resistance?
On your separate question, I'm using a battery tender every night.  I ought to pick me up some of HondaMan resistors.  When I do, then does this change my plug situation?

It always amazes me how you get around to answering everyones questions.  Thanks TwoTired.

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 07:55:27 AM »
OK, keep the iridiums. They are the best. They also only come with the R designation. Do not worry about it, they can make the most of low voltage systems. Do you know what kind of wire you used or got with your dyna coils? Did you use standard ngk plug caps?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 03:32:32 PM »
The stock bike had resistors in the plug caps (about 5K ohms), and very tiny resistance in the spark plug leads.  If your replacement wire/boots don't have any resistance, then you should have resistor spark plugs.
Are you using resistance wire and resistor spark plug boots?

Separate question:
How do you keep the battery charged up with the increased power draw from 3 ohm coils and that dyna-s?

Cheers,

Thanks TwoTired,  how do I check if the wire/boots have any resistance?
On your separate question, I'm using a battery tender every night.  I ought to pick me up some of HondaMan resistors.  When I do, then does this change my plug situation?

It always amazes me how you get around to answering everyones questions.  Thanks TwoTired.


Resistance wire can have a running stamp along it's length.  By observation, the center conductor won't look like a simple stranded wire construction.  You can also determine with an ohmmeter.  Standard readings for resistance wire are 5000 to 10000 ohms per foot, depending on the manufacturer.
The boots can also be checked by ohmmeter, or if the internals are accessible, you can see a direct metal path for conduction.

I don't think the Hondaman's resistor should effect the plug situation.  Though, I'm unconvinced iridiums are all that necessary, or economical.  The H resistor on the opposite side of the coil, anyway.


And, I don't answer everyones questions.  Certainly not the ones who are too mean to converse with.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 08:46:33 AM »
Thanks TwoTired,

I will check my hardware and post it on this thread.  One thing I've forgot to mention, ever since I changed to 7 plugs, I've noticed a decrease in "balls".  The bike doesn't respond like it used to, and the battery drains a lot quicker.  Is this normal?

Really busy at work, so I I'll post some pics, and get back to you all.  Thanks for your help.

FLo
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 08:48:47 AM by FLo »

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 08:54:10 AM »
As I said, KEEP the iridiums. They are the top plug you can get and changing to the d7ea will probably cost you in both power and charging. Iridium plugs optimize low voltage systems and will probably last the life of the bike.
Put them back in and hey, if you do not, I will buy them off of you!

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 09:05:53 AM »
As I said, KEEP the iridiums. They are the top plug you can get and changing to the d7ea will probably cost you in both power and charging. Iridium plugs optimize low voltage systems and will probably last the life of the bike.
Put them back in and hey, if you do not, I will buy them off of you!

HA!  P.S. - do you know what the average life of these iridiums are?  Where's the best place to get them online?  Thanks Master!

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 10:10:01 AM »
The iridiums will last probably 100,000 miles if not more unless they get damaged. As for online, the prices seem pretty uniform, some have scored deals on ebay but those seem to be the dr8 iridiums which might be a little cool running for the 550/500 unless your area gets real hot and then might not be a bad idea.

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 10:14:00 AM »
The iridiums will last probably 100,000 miles if not more unless they get damaged. As for online, the prices seem pretty uniform, some have scored deals on ebay but those seem to be the dr8 iridiums which might be a little cool running for the 550/500 unless your area gets real hot and then might not be a bad idea.

I guess, I'll stick the iridiums back in.  Sorry Master, no deal.  I'm in Vancouver, BC, so it doesn't get too hot up here.  The plugs were new two years ago, with only 5k on them.  I reckon they'll still have plenty of life left. 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 10:48:52 AM »
Thanks TwoTired,

I will check my hardware and post it on this thread.  One thing I've forgot to mention, ever since I changed to 7 plugs, I've noticed a decrease in "balls".  The bike doesn't respond like it used to, and the battery drains a lot quicker.  Is this normal?

The battery drain is no doubt due to your 3 ohm coils. It's not normal for a bike with stock coils, but probably is "normal" for a 550 with 3 ohm coils.  The Dyna S, exacerbates the problem as it leaves the higher power drain of the coils on longer than the stock points did (much longer dwell , per Hondaman posts). The Hondaman 1 or 2 ohm resistor would help that, but, won't cure the battery drain issue completely.
I don't know why iridiums would cause a power loss, unless they were fouled with combustion deposits.  Do they have a smaller gap, or larger than standard D7EA?  It's a cheap test to drop in standard plugs for a power comparison.
But, it does take horsepower to make electrical power.  If your alternator is always running at max output to keep up with the extra power drain, I suppose you might feel the loss of "balls".  But as 1 HP = 745.699872 watts, and the alt only does 150 W max, you'd have to have a pretty sensitive butt to feel that sort of difference.

Have you made air filter changes too?
Have you checked the tappet clearance, and spark timing?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 10:54:54 AM »
I think he actually did go to the d7 plugs. It kinda sounds like he did and that is when he ran into the issues. Thats what it sounds like anyways.

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 11:32:39 AM »
Thanks TwoTired,

I will check my hardware and post it on this thread.  One thing I've forgot to mention, ever since I changed to 7 plugs, I've noticed a decrease in "balls".  The bike doesn't respond like it used to, and the battery drains a lot quicker.  Is this normal?

The battery drain is no doubt due to your 3 ohm coils. It's not normal for a bike with stock coils, but probably is "normal" for a 550 with 3 ohm coils.  The Dyna S, exacerbates the problem as it leaves the higher power drain of the coils on longer than the stock points did (much longer dwell , per Hondaman posts). The Hondaman 1 or 2 ohm resistor would help that, but, won't cure the battery drain issue completely.
I don't know why iridiums would cause a power loss, unless they were fouled with combustion deposits.  Do they have a smaller gap, or larger than standard D7EA?  It's a cheap test to drop in standard plugs for a power comparison.
But, it does take horsepower to make electrical power.  If your alternator is always running at max output to keep up with the extra power drain, I suppose you might feel the loss of "balls".  But as 1 HP = 745.699872 watts, and the alt only does 150 W max, you'd have to have a pretty sensitive butt to feel that sort of difference.

Have you made air filter changes too?
Have you checked the tappet clearance, and spark timing?

Cheers,

No, the power loss problem was when I changed the plugs from iridium 7's to normal 7's.  I did also change my air filter to a uni foam filter at the same time.  Maybe it's the air filter that's making me feel like the bike has no balls.  As to my sesitive butt, that thread is in another forum. 

By the way, why do you think the PO changed to 3ohm coils.  I have the 5ohm stock coils in a box that came with the bike.  Is it advantageous to have 3ohm vs 5ohms.  Should I revert to the 5ohm, and if I do, what differences will I notice apart from the draining issues being solved?

Thanks guys.


mutt

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 12:17:41 PM »
I pinged Dyna about thier S type in a 73 CB500. The tech said they recommend the STOCK coils in the early CB machines BECAUSE OF thier marginal charging system.....in machines with more charging output, they recommend thier 3 ohm coils....

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 12:20:59 PM »
No, the power loss problem was when I changed the plugs from iridium 7's to normal 7's.  I did also change my air filter to a uni foam filter at the same time.  Maybe it's the air filter that's making me feel like the bike has no balls.  As to my sesitive butt, that thread is in another forum. 
I imagine it's the air filter.  I'd guess you don't have the stock exhaust either.  The 78 carbs were finely tuned (on the lean side) for both the exhaust and air filter restriction characteristics.  Open exhaust evacuates the cylinder faster, so there is more oxygen available on the next cycle (needs more fuel).  And, the free-er air inlet changes the carb throat vacuum, reducing it, so it pulls less fuel from the carb fuel jets.   Both these changes require you rejet the carbs.  Most likely bigger mains and raising the slide needle height will wake the engine up.

By the way, why do you think the PO changed to 3ohm coils.  I have the 5ohm stock coils in a box that came with the bike.  Is it advantageous to have 3ohm vs 5ohms.  Should I revert to the 5ohm, and if I do, what differences will I notice apart from the draining issues being solved?

The PO may have been told (and believed) that more spark meant more HP.  The 3 ohm coils can make more spark if the spark gap is increased.  And it will make more spark at lower input voltages than the stock ones (like during electric start when the battery voltage sags).  Could also be that a 750 centric guy advised him, who was used to a bigger charging system.  Could be that "modern" meant more to him than a vintage bike.
Could also be that there was an ignition wire problem with the old coils.  Whatever the reason, it was the wrong selection for your application, it appears.
If you are using a spark gap of .025-ish on whatever plug you select, I'd go back to the stock coils if the wire leads are undamaged.  Or, you could seek out a 750 guy that wants 3 ohm, have him get the 5 ohm versions and swap.  Or, maybe Dyna will take yours in trade for 5 ohm if you call them up?
Unless there have been compression changes in your engine, or you require a larger spark gap, you won't notice much difference in the way the bike runs, after you get the battery back up to full charge, of course.  If your battery is weak, or there is voltage drop between battery and coils, then starting might be more difficult with 5 ohm coils.  But, I advocate fixing those issues rather than drain the battery with fat coils.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2009, 04:58:04 AM »
Thanks TwoTired,

I guess I should of gave more info.  Yes, mac 4-1 exhaust installed last summer, and the PO installed a dyna-s. 

I think my action plan will be

1. revert to 5ohm coils
2. rejet

or should the order be reversed?  In the meantime, I'm going to look for a tutorial on rejetting.  Can anyone point me in the right direction.  Remember, I'm a complete newb, so pictures are good.

Thanks Guys,


eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2009, 06:10:59 AM »
There really isnt a tutorial as every bike can behave differently. However you can tune using the plugs. Put the d7 plugs back in for the time being and run at idle for a while. Make sure the engine is warm first though. Pull the plugs and see what the insulator looks like. If it is really white, then you are too lean. If really brown, I would say a little too rich. A light tan should be good. you would adjust your air/fuel screws. If you have a pre-76 then you should have air screws, IN is richer, OUT is leaner. If it is a 77/78 then it is the opposite.
Small adjustments can make a big difference.
Next, go out to an open road. Start in first and gun the hell out of it and take off. keep the rpm's way up and go through your gears. Once in 5th, hit the clutch and kill switch at the same time and coast to a stop without using the engine to slow you down, brakes are fine.
Wait a bit to cool off and then check the plugs again. You are looking for the light tan still. If white, then you cant try raising the needle if you have clips but a larger jet might be needed if really white. If darker brown, I would lower the needle if you can.

If you need more direction, let us know what your plugs look like and the year of your bike( I cant remember ;D).
Once that tuning is basically done, put the iridiums back in.

I suppose another way to do it would be to get a good electronic tach and hook it up to your bike, leave in the iridiums and tune by rpm. It works in most cases and might not get you a speeding ticket that a plug chop might! :D

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 08:54:45 AM »
There really isnt a tutorial as every bike can behave differently. However you can tune using the plugs. Put the d7 plugs back in for the time being and run at idle for a while. Make sure the engine is warm first though. Pull the plugs and see what the insulator looks like. If it is really white, then you are too lean. If really brown, I would say a little too rich. A light tan should be good. you would adjust your air/fuel screws. If you have a pre-76 then you should have air screws, IN is richer, OUT is leaner. If it is a 77/78 then it is the opposite.
Small adjustments can make a big difference.
Next, go out to an open road. Start in first and gun the hell out of it and take off. keep the rpm's way up and go through your gears. Once in 5th, hit the clutch and kill switch at the same time and coast to a stop without using the engine to slow you down, brakes are fine.
Wait a bit to cool off and then check the plugs again. You are looking for the light tan still. If white, then you cant try raising the needle if you have clips but a larger jet might be needed if really white. If darker brown, I would lower the needle if you can.

If you need more direction, let us know what your plugs look like and the year of your bike( I cant remember ;D).
Once that tuning is basically done, put the iridiums back in.

I suppose another way to do it would be to get a good electronic tach and hook it up to your bike, leave in the iridiums and tune by rpm. It works in most cases and might not get you a speeding ticket that a plug chop might! :D

Thanks Master,

I've got a 78 550k.  Where are these screws located? Is it on right side just below the crotch area when seated, that increases the idle?

Also, can the same effect be reached on the center stand?  Also the iridiums have resistors on them as marked on the model number r7...ix or (or something like that).  Will that make a difference?

And a newbie question - is the insulator the metal attached to the coil wire that connects to the plug?

Thanks,

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 09:08:59 AM »

Also the iridiums have resistors on them as marked on the model number r7...ix or (or something like that).  Will that make a difference?


oops, you answered this question previously.  Excuse my ignorance.

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 11:01:14 AM »
I think the 550 has the knob on the right while sitting on the bike. Pretty sure it does. That is for idle.

the fuel screws are on the airbox side, on the bottom of each of the carbs. 1 on each carb. OUT makes them richer and IN makes them leaner as they meter fuel and not air like the older ones did.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2009, 11:41:07 AM »
I guess I should of gave more info.  Yes, mac 4-1 exhaust installed last summer, and the PO installed a dyna-s. 

I think my action plan will be
1. revert to 5ohm coils
2. rejet

or should the order be reversed?  In the meantime, I'm going to look for a tutorial on rejetting.  Can anyone point me in the right direction.  Remember, I'm a complete newb, so pictures are good.

The coils effect the battery recharging rate, so you can run it longer.  To get engine power back will require rejeting.  Which is more important to you?

The 78 550K has PD carbs. The Idle Mixture Screws are accessed from the bottom of the carbs just forward of the float bowl housings.  There is a section in the Honda shop manual for their adjustment.  Use sensitive tach and peak RPM at idle.  And, a right angle screwdriver will save your hands from burns.

Since these are mechanical slide carbs, if you make the idle too lean, the throttle response under load suffers at low RPM.  The idles screws for the PD carbs, mainly effect the mixture from idle to 1/8 throttle setting.  The needles effect mixture from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle.  The mains also feed the midrange needles, but are used to determine mixtures for 3/4 to FULL open throttle settings.
As a first guess, probably raise the slide needles one notch, and perhaps change from a #90 to a #100 main jet?

Search the forum for "Plug Chops", as a way to choose which size main to select.  You either need a DYNO (which will give you a fuel map) or a test track to find the correct jets and setting for carb with your changes.  You look at the center electrode insulator, and the ground strap for combustion deposits.  (Called; "reading the plugs").  This chart will show you some examples:
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

After you have selected the correct main jet, then proceed to find the proper slide needle position,  then adjust the Idle mixture screws (interactive with the idle speed screw) for proper mixture at idle and good throttle response from low RPM under load.

Shouldn't take more than a week or two the get it sorted.   ;D ;D

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2009, 12:20:40 PM »
Flo, if you look at that chart, I shoot for #20.

Offline FLo

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2009, 12:42:41 PM »
TwoTired - That chart is gold!

Eldar - I'll definately shoot for #20

I'll keep you guys in the loop.  Give me some time to make some adjustments.  Thanks for all your input guys.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2009, 01:10:39 PM »
TwoTired - That chart is gold!
Yes, it is a good learning chart.

Actually, as the chart indicates, #16 is the best.  Particularly with your bike, as the leaner settings above that tend to make the engine run hotter.  Kinda depends on the altitude you operate the bike, though.  For at or near sea level go for #16.  The carbs automatically get richer as the altitude increases (actually it is the air that causes that, the carbs just don't know about it).

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

eldar

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Re: A Plug question
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2009, 02:15:41 PM »
OK I must say I am on the 750 but I find the bike runs better on #20 than any richer. I suppose the 550 could be different.