Author Topic: My project thus far. "Elsa"  (Read 84493 times)

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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #175 on: March 13, 2009, 11:35:26 AM »
IMO, I'd use an impact driver on EVERY phillips head removal.
It's too late once the 'X' is buggered...

lol my starter cover had phillips on it. I almost cried when the impact couldn't get them off.

was just about to start up my dremel, when my 10yo little brister (borther who looks like a sister) took a stubby #3 and just turned them out!!!

I felt so weak.
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Offline Inkscars

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #176 on: March 13, 2009, 11:40:25 AM »
I don't wanna use an impact driver on my points plate ya know?
And who the hell named us; click-click-click-click-click-click

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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #177 on: March 13, 2009, 11:57:48 AM »
I don't wanna use an impact driver on my points plate ya know?

Why not? If it's tight on already, it will only get looser. All the impact goes down the screw.

Just start off with a light tap with a hammer. Then work your way hitting harder each time until it pops loose. Should be fine.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #178 on: March 13, 2009, 11:58:27 AM »
Or did you not mean the mounting screws but an actual screw on the circuit plate?
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Offline Inkscars

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #179 on: March 13, 2009, 12:01:42 PM »
The one for adjusting the left point. I was gapping the points but I couldn't gap it cause the screw head was stripped.
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #180 on: March 13, 2009, 12:06:59 PM »
If you can, I'd dremel a slot in it, really deep, being careful not to hit anything, and then try to remove it completely. Replacements can be found in ANY hardware store worth it's salt.

Slotting deep on a screw like that will allow two things, good grip, and in the event of possible head breakage, you can then just drill out the center of the screw and remove.

In most instances without damaging the existing threads.
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Offline goon 1492

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #181 on: March 13, 2009, 01:39:37 PM »
Its eletronic ignition. I'd go with points and hondamans transistorized setup, he has em' in the forsale section.

As for meating me, its ok I'm so ugly you'd have to slap a porkchop to my neck to get your dog to even look at me..... :P
I am like my bike. A work in progress......
ON another note if you thinK you have JIS head screws look at the screw head ( I DON'T MEAN ME!  :P) and there will be a little dimple at the edge of the phillips screw parttern on the face of the screw.
I can get you one of those plates this weekend and you can pick it up at my work if you want, I work off of merriam lane two buildings down from the overland park tow lot, and directly south of the valero gas station. I am leaving work now but you can PM me and let me know what ya want to do, I will be at work from 5:30 am till prob 2 o' clock.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #182 on: March 13, 2009, 04:34:41 PM »
Once you get the old screws off, go down to Ace and buy some of their metric machine screws to replace them.  The one's you'll find that fit will have heads which are larger than stock (which clamps better on the plate, but don't worry they're not TOO big) and take a #3 phillips nicely.  I think they're like 60 cents each or so.

mystic_1
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #183 on: March 13, 2009, 05:35:41 PM »
i've got some extra tappet covers, how many do ya need

I can see 4 that are damaged. How many extras do you have?  ;D

i'll take a look but i'm pretty sure i got 4

Offline 754

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #184 on: March 13, 2009, 07:39:40 PM »
just a note,
Assume you have all the screws moving, and have replaced damaged ones.
From here on in, using common sense & a bit of blue loctite..
there is no reason for them to not last or get buggered again, the amount of force required to hold them is not that great.

.....................................................................

I have not dealt with stock points much lately, this may or may not apply.. sometimes them small screws are 2way.. that is phillips & slotted.. I find they work quite well with a flat screwdriver.. fwiw..

Also when a bike is on the sidestand and you are on your knees, that a good angle for working on them screws, but lean into them..

 have fun..
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #185 on: March 14, 2009, 04:54:27 AM »
754 makes a good point.  Sometimes technique makes a big difference.  When trying to move a screw than I know is really tight, I'll place the screwdriver in position, then place the palm of my left hand against the end of the screwdriver.  I then press down on the screwdriver with my left hand, hard, while turning the screwdriver with my right hand.  Usually I'm applying more force to pushing on then screwdriver than I am to turning the screwdriver.  This helps keep the tip of the driver engaged with the screw. 


Phillips screws are actually designed to pop out of the screw head when you reach a certain amount of torque.  This is supposed to keep the screw from being over-tightened, but makes it harder to remove overtightened screws.

mystic_1
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #186 on: March 14, 2009, 01:28:29 PM »
Re:  cross point drivers.

These things wear out, almost always before they break.  When they do, the tip edges round off and look more like cams lobes.
Using a worn driver shifts the torque exerted from the the driver to the surface tips of the screw head, instead of deep down where the screw shank is.  It is this that causes screw head deformation and puts a ramp in the cross point valley instead of a vertical wall for it to press against.  Both a worn driver and a deformed cross point recess creates "cam out" instead of screw rotation.

If you use good condition drivers in order to keep the screw head deformation minimalized.  Cross point screws work fine during insertion and extraction.

It may be hard to throw away that "old friend" driver.  But, if the tip edges resemble those found on a used bar of soap, it's just creating more problems and consternation for the tool operators, present and future.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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billybobobrain

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #187 on: March 14, 2009, 01:46:25 PM »
In my humble opinion, the engineer at honda that thought lets use phillips instead of allen screws should be beaten repetedly in the Knuckles with a dead blow hammer!


After 6 screws, this bit was new.

I just gave up and drilled the rest with a drill bit that was as big as the screw shank and tapped the head of the screw off with a hammer and flat screw driver. The part of the screw that binds is the head, so if you pop them off and remove the cover you can back them out with your fingers.

Buy a nice stainless set of allen screws and replace all the damn phillips.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #188 on: March 14, 2009, 02:10:44 PM »
The hardness/strength of those replaceable bits varies among manufacturers.

Some are intended for production work and are intentionally soft, so as not the damage components during assembly.  They are sacrificial, and are bought in bulk and replaced frequently, even though the driver torque is calibrated for a distinct install limit.

Good bits are often harder than metal file teeth.  You can get them too hard, too.  And then they will break instead of deform when over torqued.

I laugh at those bargain table tools where you get 12 screwdrivers for a $1.  They couldn't spend much time heat treating the drivers tip now, could they?  It's sad to know how many screw heads they will undoubtedly damage, and foster hatred of cross point screws.

It's always best to use the right tool for the job.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 754

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #189 on: March 14, 2009, 05:16:27 PM »
Honda used those fasteners for a reason on the points, no chance of dishing/warping the pints plate , or stripping the thread..
 It doies not take a lot of learning to use them properly..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #190 on: March 14, 2009, 05:26:39 PM »
Re:  cross point drivers.

These things wear out, almost always before they break.  When they do, the tip edges round off and look more like cams lobes.
Using a worn driver shifts the torque exerted from the the driver to the surface tips of the screw head, instead of deep down where the screw shank is.  It is this that causes screw head deformation and puts a ramp in the cross point valley instead of a vertical wall for it to press against.  Both a worn driver and a deformed cross point recess creates "cam out" instead of screw rotation.

If you use good condition drivers in order to keep the screw head deformation minimalized.  Cross point screws work fine during insertion and extraction.

It may be hard to throw away that "old friend" driver.  But, if the tip edges resemble those found on a used bar of soap, it's just creating more problems and consternation for the tool operators, present and future.

Cheers,



Wait a second TT,
So you are saying I should be using cross-point drivers on these screws instead of JIS drivers? The manual said all the crews were ISO instead of JIS. Does that mean they are standard phillips- head screws?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #191 on: March 14, 2009, 08:06:28 PM »
This is the craziest crap I think I have ever read!!!!!!!! When I am working on a bike that I want to get going.....the last thing on the planet I am worried about is the dynamics of phillips head screws or the jap sh!t designation or whatever!!!!!!! Get an impact driver.....remove the evil POS screws that they assembled it with.....Spend a little cash and buy a hex set that is available from many different vendors.If you don't have a feel for how tight they should be....buy an inch lb. torque wrench. Use anti seize when reinstalling. Some people have to make such a big drama into everything.....no wonder people are afraid to do their own work!!!!!!!

Criminy Fred, you actually bought a special tool for the Cross point removal instead of taking out the sawz-all or hammer & chisel?

Speaking of drama.  Reread you own post above.  I think you need to add more exclamation marks if you want real emphasis, though.  ;)
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billybobobrain

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #192 on: March 14, 2009, 09:00:41 PM »
Hey Ink how's the bike coming. :o

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #193 on: March 14, 2009, 09:44:58 PM »
Give Ink her thread back and Quit talking about stupid phillips screws that WILL be nixed anyways!!!
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #194 on: March 14, 2009, 11:30:24 PM »
i've got those tappet covers send me a pm

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #195 on: March 14, 2009, 11:57:55 PM »
Sorry Ink, I was asking TT a legitimate question that might help you and me and maybe some other people, then the peanut gallery steps in and everything is a joke.

You manage to get those screws off without nuking the cover?
 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #196 on: March 15, 2009, 12:40:07 AM »
Actually I was trying to help you all with a better understanding of Cross head technology and tools selection.  Then Fred decided learning something new was "crazy" for his/our sensibilities.
That's fine, if we just want wallow in our own private ignorance, I'll be happy to let Fred police this thread and ignore it in the future.

I used the "crosspoints" name to generically identify a screw head style that appears to have a plus on it's head.  There are five basic styles and each has a driver tip design to function properly with the corresponding screw head type.  It is rather obvious to me that if you have avoided gaining any knowledge about Plus head screws and haven't had the proper driver for them, of course you will hate them because they won't function properly for you.  If it is easier for the builder to switch to allen heads (which have their own set of problems) rather than match the correct tool to the screw heads found on the bike.  Then I have no problem with that.

For those with any desire to learn something, here is an excerpt from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw

Cross-head, cross-point, or cruciform
    has a "+"-shaped slot and is driven by a cross-head screwdriver, designed originally for use with mechanical screwing machines. There are five basic types:

    Phillips
        Has slightly rounded corners in the tool recess, and was designed so the driver will slip out, or cam out, under high torque to prevent over-tightening. The Phillips Screw Company was founded in Oregon in 1933 by Henry F. Phillips, who bought the design from J. P. Thompson. Phillips was unable to manufacture the design, so he passed the patent to the American Screw Company, who was the first to manufacture it.
    Reed & Prince or Frearson
        Similar to a Phillips but has a more pointed 75° V shape.[citation needed] Its advantage over the Phillips drive is that one driver or bit fits all screw sizes. It is found mainly in marine hardware and requires a special screw driver or bit to work properly. The tool recess is a perfect cross, unlike the Phillips head, which is designed to cam out. It was developed by an English inventor named Frearson in the 19th century and produced from the late 1930s to the mid-1970s by the former Reed & Prince Manufacturing Company of Worcester, Massachusetts, a company which traces its origins to Kingston, Massachusetts, in 1882, and was liquidated in 1990 with the sale of company assets. The company is now in business.
    JIS
        Commonly found in Japanese equipment. Looks like a Phillips screw, but is designed not to cam out and will, therefore, be damaged by a Phillips screwdriver if it is too tight. Heads are usually identifiable by a single dot to one side of the cross slot. The standard number is JIS B 1012:1985
    French recess
        also called BNAE NFL22-070 after its Bureau de Normalisation de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace standard number.
    Pozidriv
        similar to cross-head but designed not to slip, or cam out. It has four additional points of contact, and does not have the rounded corners that the Phillips screw drive has. Phillips screwdrivers will usually work in Pozidriv screws, but Pozidriv screwdrivers are likely to slip or tear out the screw head when used in Phillips screws. Heads are marked with crossed, single lines at 45 degrees to the cross recess, for identification. (Note that doubled lines at 45 are a different recess: a very specialised Phillips screw.)
    Supadriv
        similar to Pozidriv.

Regards,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Hush

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #197 on: March 15, 2009, 02:07:34 AM »
ROFLMAO...sorry Ink, this often happens, sometimes you have to wade through the knee deep doodoo till you find the answer.....but they are all a great bunch of guys and within the muck you will find the magic. :D
Oh yeah and more pics please, I get bored real easy with pages of script. ;D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #198 on: March 15, 2009, 07:45:48 AM »
Ink, it's all your fault I have this strange compulsion to call Delilah my "tit baby".  Thanks a lot. ;)

Just have patience, after awhile, people will get bored and go away, just check my build thread.   The only real commentary I get is from Hush and Martino.  Then again, my bike is a whiny tit baby, and I wouldn't expect otherwise. ::)
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Offline MickeyX

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Re: My project thus far. "Elsa"
« Reply #199 on: March 15, 2009, 08:31:33 AM »
As for Phillips... all I can say is, they make a nice MRI machine. There, that's settled.  ::)

Ok, so while everyone is crowing and posturing on the chik rebuild thread, checking themselves in the mirror, flexing their biceps and making their tattoos dance, maybe we can get on with our lives in the meantime...  ;) ;D

Where are you with your bike, Ink? It's been so long since we actually talked about what you are working on now. Checking the points and ...??  :-\

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