Author Topic: need some help with coils  (Read 5914 times)

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slambert49

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need some help with coils
« on: March 04, 2009, 05:18:52 PM »
hey the wires on my stock coils are really crusty and my bike will run on all cylinders some time but its like the wires come lose inside the boots and will fire sometimes and sometimes it will cut out. the coils are a bad design because you cant just replace the plug wires. I wanted to know if i can replace the coils with 3 ohm coils so eventually I can get the dyna ignition to go with the 3 ohm coils. Is it possible to use 3 ohm coils with the stock points system? Do I need to put resistors on them until I get the ignition? Is there any way to clean the inside of the spark plug wires? Or should I just get replacement coils?

some many questions????? :-\ please help me out

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 05:44:50 PM »
Depends on the bike's charging system.  Which model/year do ya have?
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
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slambert49

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 06:00:22 PM »
its a 73cb750 the frame says its a k2 but the engine says is a k3

72COOL

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2009, 04:22:44 PM »
My coils are fine on my '72, but I need new wires.  Can't believe it is so difficult.
Can't find a tutorial or a clear answer to replacement.
Would like to buy some car wires and plug caps just to be cheap and useful.
Any updates?
(In FAQ there is a description of drilling out the connection to the coils, but I can't really tell what he is describing)

Offline number13

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2009, 04:30:34 PM »
Is there a decent M/C salvage yard near you?
I found some later year Honda coils, that did have
replaceable wires,  cheap at my favorite local
place, Union Salvage. They were the right resistance too!
Bikes parked out front mean good chicken-fried steak inside.

ev0lution7

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2009, 05:43:21 PM »
here is my coil setup i used

GL1000 coils.. (with the resister removed)
and i got accell 8mm spiral core wires
and used this link to help me make my own coil wires... for the coils..

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17310.0

it was a big help my spark plugs have BLUE ARCHS not orange sparks...

also i replaced my spark plug CAPS! try parts-n-more.com for spark plugs caps at a good deal!


« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 06:14:48 PM by ev0lution7 »

72COOL

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Thank You
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2009, 06:26:51 PM »
Link was what I was looking for.  Not sure I want to do operation on my coil, but it does make it clear what can be done.
I'm gonna look for salvage and try it on an extra set that I could use or just leave to the side.
my ride is a cb500, 1972.  The GL1000 are a straight swap?  I had a 77 Wing that sold last year!  Coulda scarfed some parts before I let it go.
Thanks for the responses, fellas.

ev0lution7

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 07:04:28 PM »
yes GL1000 are dirrect replacement coils no modification nessissary just remove the balist resistor and your home free it was an old 70's racer trick the coils "look" like CB750 coils but are "hotter" than stock!

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 07:30:49 PM »
I just upgraded  (I hope it's an upgrade) to 1996 Honda CBR 600 F3 coils for $25 + wires..

Easily replaceable wires, somewhat hotter than stock (I've seen 3 ish ohms stated).

spwg
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ev0lution7

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 08:08:36 PM »
ya thats what its about.. although i was looking for a stock looking coil so no one would would second guess my coils as a proformance part ;)

Offline bryanj

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 06:47:43 AM »
The gL100 without resistor will fit but they aint gona last as long as without resistor they are 9 volt coils not 12 volt
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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ev0lution7

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2009, 07:31:23 AM »
thats funny mine say 12v right on them???? do you have a pair that you got your info from?

Offline 1timduke

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2009, 05:10:39 PM »
   I'm gonna try and pick up another set of coils from a salvage yard tomorrow.   I'm assuming the GL1000 coils are good for a '75 550?   What things should I be looking out for as far as just looking a the coils?   Will any year GL1000 work?   I want to tear into mine as they are not the strongest, I don't want to end up with a non running bike.   Also, how much would be a fair price for the coils, I've never bought from a bike salvage yard.

Thanks,

-Tim
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2009, 06:09:36 PM »
You need to check the primary resistance of whatever coil you select.  Stock was about 5 ohm.  Lower ohm coils draw extra power from the bike's system (and even more with a dyna-s).  Since the stock alternator can't keep up with stock loads at idle, increased coil draw will deplete the poor 550's battery even faster and delay the recharge cycle.

I don't have GL1000 coils to measure.  I thought these were actually 6V coils (2.4 ohm primaries)?  They only have 12v applied to them while the electric starter is engaged in it's native application, and an inline resistor to reduce the voltage/current draw while the bike is actually running.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline 1timduke

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 10:47:47 PM »
How exactly do you measure the resistance, TT?   I have a multimeter and I can measure the ohms, but where do I apply the leads?   I'm currently running what I believe are '72 500 coils on a '75 550, are these the same?   Should I look for a set of CB coils instead?   I was thinking the GL1000 coil would be nice b/c it has the removable wires.   Sorry for all the ?s just looking for some guidance.

Thanks,

-Tim
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ev0lution7

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 11:24:24 PM »
measure resistance on the primarry side... yellow to black/w
blue to black/w

and then secondary side with out the spark plug caps... both wires....

and GL1000 coils are ABOUT 3Ohm they are actually 12v coils with a resistor just remove the resistor and you get 3 ohm High output coils :)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2009, 12:43:27 AM »
As explained, you measure the primary, B/W to yellow or Blue to find out if it is going to draw more power from the bike's electrical system.  Low ohms = more power draw.

While lower ohm coil primaries have the potential to make higher spark voltage.  It doesn't mean that it actually does provide more voltage at the spark gap.  The size of the gap determines the firing voltage.  The coils only have to generate the required gap voltage, not it's full potential.  On a stock motor, 3 ohm coils provide no run time benefit unless you increase the spark gap of the plugs (which requires more spark voltage to create the arc).

The main benefit of 3 ohm coils on a stock motor, is during electric start when large current draws from the battery bring the system voltage down.  Then the excess capacity of the coil's winding ratio can develop more potential spark voltage.  Some even use 3 ohm coils when the electrical routing of the bike loses excessive voltage going to the coils.  A 3 ohm (or less) coil being fed 10 V, instead of full battery voltage, can create more spark potential than a 5 ohm primary type.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

sabres7th

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2009, 09:00:33 AM »
The gL1000 without resistor will fit but they aint gona last as long as without resistor they are 9 volt coils not 12 volt
1978 cb550k, with dyna s 1-2 ign
ok, i want to get my spark voltage up higher stock to make a bigger spark. i realize the stock charging system is weak. is it possible to use the dyna 3ohm coils or stay with 5ohm? right now i have the stock coils on the bike. is there a output difference between the 5ohm dyna and the stock coils? could i use the gl1000 coils and not worry about the battery draw with the resistor left on them?
alot of questions i know what i am really asking is where do i get more bang for the buck or just leave well enough alone. thank you agian for taking your time to help out!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 09:07:55 AM by sabres7th »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 12:15:06 PM »
1978 cb550k, with dyna s 1-2 ign
ok, i want to get my spark voltage up higher stock to make a bigger spark.
For what reason?

i realize the stock charging system is weak. is it possible to use the dyna 3ohm coils or stay with 5ohm?
Sure.  Re-set your idle to 3000 or 3500 RPM and run with no lights on.

right now i have the stock coils on the bike. is there a output difference between the 5ohm dyna and the stock coils?
yes.  I understand it is more a spark duration issue, rather than a peak voltage issue.

could i use the gl1000 coils and not worry about the battery draw with the resistor left on them?
I'm not certain of the gl1000 coil resistance, or the resistor value that they use.  Report that and I can do a calculation.

...But, you won't get something for nothing.  The coils work on a voltage ratio multiplication.  Low ohm coils have a higher voltage multiplication, but draw higher current/power.  A resistor lowers the current draw by reducing the voltage the coils receive, and there is less to multiply.

Your dyna S already draws more power from the stock coils than the points system.  Increasing the current draw for the coils will just multiply that condition.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 07:45:11 AM »
I love my stock ignition....!
Stock points
Stock points gap
Stock timing
Stock advance mech.
Stock coils............................. haven't touched it for 2K miles !
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 03:31:01 PM »
+1 Spanner, tho I'll add that I love my HondaMan Ignition Module too!
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
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sabres7th

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 08:50:50 PM »
i'll take it as leave well enough alone. dyna products or high powered ign parts are crap with no advantage over stock.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 10:03:08 PM »
i'll take it as leave well enough alone. dyna products or high powered ign parts are crap with no advantage over stock.
Yes, who could have thought that the parts that came with the Honda could work so well?

It is nice to see well reasoned and level headed comments in the forum, isn't it?  ::)

I wonder why you never defined the advantage you were seeking?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

sabres7th

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2009, 08:30:31 PM »
no really no sarcasm. just wanted to know if their is hidden horse power that can be milked out of the ign system. can not afford to bore out the bike. or buy a 750.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2009, 11:05:06 PM »
Hotter spark does not make more power.  However, doing other things to the engine may require hotter spark to enable that power increase.
For example, higher cylinder pressure requires higher voltage to create the arc across the electrodes.
So, high performance engines often require a spark improvement.  But, spark improvement is not going to make an ordinary engine produce more power just from the added spark energy.

Here's a crude calculation:
1 horsepower hour = 745.699 861 11 watt hour
Let's say we make our engine output 50hp.  This converts to  37250 watt hours.

The ignition system, regardless of the output voltage, is current limited to a percentage of what the primary of the coil draws from the electrical system.
Two 5 ohm coils draw 67 watts, (in one hour it uses 67 watt hours).
Two 3 ohm coils draw 112 watts, (in one hour it uses 112 watt hours).
Even if we assume that the coil energy conversion is 100%, and that 100% of the coil energy is transferred into the engines output (it is certainly not in either case)
67 watt hours = 0.089 848 481 265 horsepower hour
112 watt hours = 0.150 194 476 14 horsepower hour

These are small numbers to start with, and the differences between them are even smaller.  I don't think even the most calibrated butt dyno will feel an added boost from high output ignition systems as the sole variable.

I admit that there are other (valid) reasons to improve an ignition system besides a desired HP boost.  But, those goals need identification before a cost/benefit analysis can be reasoned.

IMO, of course.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Bodi

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2009, 07:47:42 AM »
I often disagree with TT's certainty that Honda's design and engineering are perfect but the facts on the ignition system are hard to dispute. The stock Kettering system works fine and no "improvement" to it is going to give you a meaningful horsepower boost.
The original question was about a failing ignition system. Repairing it with stock parts may be an option (are new OEM coil/wire sets still available anywhere?). Using the available new points sets is a dubious choice, many of us have found these to be poorly made and short lived.
Using new five ohm Dyna coils is reasonable. They mount on the stock posts (with slight modification using a file), the low voltage wires plug right in, the HV cables are replaceable and use standard automotive distributor connectors at the coil. You can get new NGK plug caps, either resistor or direct type depending on your thoughts about secondary circuit resistance, if you want a stock look. You can buy neon coloured HV wires with molded on plug caps if you like that look.
There are identically packaged coils (same manufacturers as the failing OEM ones) with removable HV wires. The CB900 has 5 ohm ones I think. The early GL coils fit but the primary resistance is lower and use a ballast resistor much like old cars did, bypassed to give a good strong spark while the starter motor is on (this drops the battery voltage to round 9VDC). I would leave this resistor in the circuit, personally. The coil was designed to give a fine spark with it in at full battery voltage (13-15VDC) so why remove it? The 550 has a tight power budget - the alternator output is just slightly higher than the normal electrical load. Increasing the ignition system power draw by using a lower resistance coil that does not increase performance in any way is not a smart move.
You can use just about any 5 ohm 12V dual-fire coil if you can get it to fit. Don't use extreme low resistance types used with some electronic ignitions, two ohms or lower. You cannot use these "as is" with stock points anyway, and usually they are pulse type coils incompatible with points.
Replacing the points with an electronic ignition is another choice.
The simplest aftermarket electronic ignition unit is the Dyna S, which does work but brings some problems. It draws more power than the points system: the points open (producing a spark) and stay open for just under 1/2 of the rotation of the points cam, giving a fixed ~190 degree dwell angle (if adjusted correctly!) whereas the Dyna circuit -triggered by a magnetic sensor rather than mechanical points - opens (and makes a spark) then closes again in a very short (unchanging with RPM) time. The effective dwell angle thus changes with RPM (total time per shaft turn drops as rpm rises while the "open" time remains fixed) but at normal RPMs the coils are ON more of the time than with points. The Newtronic (and the old Martek) unit has the same features/drawbacks, using an optical sensor. These all use the original mechanical spark advance mechanism with its - adequate - primitive advance curve and inherent instability.
Dwell angle is defined as the fraction of a full 360 degree rotation of the distributor shaft that the points are closed. We don't have distributors, though... anyway it amounts to the fraction of 360 degrees of point cam rotation that the points are closed. The coil requires a certain time (not much time - a few milliseconds) to saturate, meaning to create the maximum magnetic field strength in the coil core. After that time it still draws power, but the power just heats the primary coil wire and does not make more spark output power - the spark energy is derived purely from that magnetic field collapsing when power is removed. The maximum RPM of the engine is partly limited by the coil saturation time and dwell angle, at some very high rpm the points will not be closed long enough to completely form the magnetic field and spark energy will fall proportionally to the reduction in field strength. There is no benefit to a long dwell time. Too short and the spark will get weaker. The stock points system is fine to well over 10,000 RPM.
The Dyna 2000 or Boyer Brandsen micro digital ignitions are very nice - and pretty expensive. They eliminate the mechanical advancer and allow for changing the advance curve. They do not waste much power. Both require special coils, Dyna wants 2.2 or 3 ohm coils while the BB needs a very low resistance pulse coil and -for an SOHC4 - uses four small single coils rather than two dual output coils.
"Hondaman" (here on the boards) is selling an electronic ignition add-on box that uses stock points as a low power switch triggering an electronic coil power switching circuit. This vastly extends the lifespan of the points assembly. The stock advancer is kept, and the dwell angle is adjustable via mechanical adjustment of the points themselves just like with the stock system. Power draw is essentially identical to the stock system. You use stock coils or 3 ohm coils with a ballast resistor. The system is all in a small box that connects between the coils and the wires from the points. Since the points contacts do not wear (the wear is caused by the tiny spark every time they open when connected directly to the coils in the stock system, there's no spark with the Hondaman system) the timing doesn't have to be set very often - checked yearly is about all.


Offline Spanner 1

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2009, 10:10:38 AM »
Go Bodi...!! What a good explaination !!......I don't like the Dyna S ignition as it seems to be a ' one size fits all' system and is not in any way 'tuned' to our SOHC advance curve, right?....especially as static timing is set with full mechanical advance dialled-in 'cos the magnetic trigger ' lags behind as rpm increases '......IMHO. Also I don't like the transistor switched ignition as the current supplied to the points is miniscule compared to stock and 'any' film/corrupting of the point contact surfaces will fail to conduct this small bias current, right?..IMHO.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

sabres7th

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2009, 12:32:31 PM »
wow. :)

Offline Deltarider

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Re: need some help with coils
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2009, 01:01:47 PM »
Quote
Also I don't like the transistor switched ignition as the current supplied to the points is miniscule compared to stock and 'any' film/corrupting of the point contact surfaces will fail to conduct this small bias current, right?..IMHO
Well, 'it never failed to conduct' with the transistor ignition I've built my self and has served over 50.000 kms (same points!).
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