Author Topic: Protection in the city  (Read 11066 times)

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Offline heffay

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2009, 02:07:17 PM »
ok... well you will be one of the misinformed Kansans.   ;D :P
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2009, 02:26:23 PM »
Dear TwoTired (I don´t know your real name),
My name is in the Signature file below.  Has been there for well over a year, and shows up in every post I make.

I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way.
I'll assume this is genuine.

By the way, can you tell me please what has to do the sentence "In the fields of observation, chance favors only the mind that is prepared" with the use of guns in your country?.
Ok, I'll try.  I'm still not convinced you actually want to understand, as I have already explained it in a previous post.
Quote
that being prepared for the worst case scenario, favors a beneficial outcome for the prepared

To expand:
It's a common theme in all the quotes I posted (The purpose of which was an attempt to bring some levity to the thread... which failed miserably on some readers.)
If you are prepared to survive under horrific circumstances, your chances of actually surviving the circumstance are far better if you have prepared for that in advance.

Example:
When a band of thugs has broken down the door to your home and is advancing on your bedroom in the dead of night announcing their intent to kill you, rape your wife and children, ... is this the best time to decide that having a gun for protection, and some training and practice in the use of those tools against these intruders might have been a good idea?

I'll make an assumption that you own an umbrella.  Why?  Can't you avoid going out in the rain?  Can't you move to a locale where it doesn't rain?
Even if you can't/won't, what harm is a bit of water touching your skin?  It won't kill you.  There are even people who enjoy rain water gently pelting on their skin?   What wrong with you that makes an umbrella an allowable item in your inventory?  I can sit here and say that you simply don't need an umbrella, and simply shouldn't have one,  Further, you should insist they be banned in your entire country?  Why?  Because a person is more likely to beat or spear pedestrians, than to use it for the frivolous purpose of keeping rain off your person.  Just think of all those poor bystanders who might be run through with that umbrella's pointy tip.  Oh the inhumanity of it all!  Surely, that device is too evil, too powerful to be under your control, even if there is the off chance it might keep you dry in some unimportant (to me) way. 
I'll bet you have kitchen knives, too!  Why?  Can't you buy food that doesn't need to be cut?  Certainly a knife can be used to inflict grievous damage to other citizens.  How can we possibly trust you with such a powerful tool.  You might even throw it a someone casually walking by your home,  (without an umbrella, I might add.)

I expect you may find some of the above just plain silly.  (Hopefully, anyway)
 The point is, you may have purchased an umbrella on a perfectly nice, non- rainy day.  Because it was reasonable to believe that not all days in the future would be rainless.  And, a tool to keep rain off you in the future my come in handy.
Did you bring home meat or vegetables, then realize you didn't have anything to cut them with, and then go back out to acquire a knife?  More likely bought your kitchen knife well in advance of whatever material you wished to have separated into smaller, bite sized pieces.

In short, you didn't trust to chance that your food would be in bite sized pieces when it came time to eat.  And, you didn't trust to chance the rain would would fall all around you but not on you when you acquired your umbrella.

You probably prepared in advance, mentally and physically, for an event that had not yet occurred, but you had reason to believe that it would or might occur at an unspecified time.

Likewise, if you have a gun in your home, or carry a gun with you.  You are more prepared to survive an assault on your home (in the prior case), or your very person while traveling about your locale.

Further, gun ownership is a crime deterrent.  If a criminal knows all persons are unable to defend themselves, and he possesses a superior power, be it big fists, big club, big knife, or big gun, he can pick and chose his victims at will, to do with according to his whim.  He can easily flee the scene before law enforcement officials arrive on scene.  However, if he choses the frail 98 lb. 70 year old to rob of her pension money and break her legs, and that woman happens to be packing a small revolver, he is either terminated on the spot, thereby vastly improving the quality of life for the entire neighbor hood, or he flees to consider other victims, or he finds other locales to ply his trade, where there is more assurance that his potential victims aren't as powerful as he is.

You may not wish to believe there are people in the world who think less of your life than they do the possessions you've acquired, but they do exist, nevertheless.  If chance puts you in a personal encounter with these persons, are you willing to also rely on chance that you and yours will survive the encounter?  I have chosen to be prepared to survive such an encounter as I believe it will increase the odds of my or my family's survival of said an encounter.

In addition, there are people who cannot fathom doing harm to another person and also feel they are no different than anybody else, and therefore all persons should have the same regard/reverence for human life, as they do.  This is a fallacy and a dangerous one to survival.
There ARE people who can kill on whim with absolutely NO remorse.  In fact, they can internally justify it.  They exist throughout the world, not just the US.  The fact that you have yet to encounter one, does not invalidate their existence.  I pray I do not ever encounter one of these individuals.  But, if I don't prepare for that possibility ahead of time, my chances of prevailing in the encounter are diminished.

You say you would rather be robbed, than kill someone.  And, I agree to a point.
During the event, you cannot know the outcome of such an event.
A person who robs you, may indeed only covet/collect your property.  However, they may also be doing it to dominate you.  If that becomes too easy for them, their dominance goals aren't met and the encounter can escalate, perhaps even to personal violence.  And yes, there are people who think this way, too.  Seek out a criminologist or someone experienced in criminology.  Prepare yourself for a shock!

To enter my home you need an invitation or you have to break in.  I don't invite people in who I think are a personal threat.  If they ask for food at the door, I'm likely to give it to them.  Not so likely to invite them in if I think it may be a ruse to gain entry.  I certainly won't invite them in if there is ANY suspicion that I'll need to use my firearm against them.  If someone breaks in, they have already demonstrated a disregard for my possessions, as well as my desire to keep uninvited people out.  What evidence is there that suggests they have ANY regard for my will, well being, or my family's?  If they advance upon my or my family's person uninvited, is it not a reasonable assumption that harm may come to us?  How much harm?  Will they leave witnesses to their acts?  Will they sit down at a table and discuss their intentions beforehand?  At what point does the intruder deserve as many rounds as my gun holds?  Do I frighten them off and then worry about them returning later, perhaps with accomplices, better prepared to prevail the encounter?  I have planned and prepared for such a scenario.  If the intruder does not follow the STOP!  DROP TO FLOOR! PUT HANDS ON HEAD! commands, and then remain there while authorities arrive.  I will donate bullets to his person until he complies with commands.  (I will no doubt suffer lots of mental anguish after such an event, which I would most certainly prefer to avoid.)  But, it is a price I am willing to make, in order to help society be a safer place.

I think I have arranged my environment (location and domicile presentation to outside passersby) in order to avoid a shooting event, hopefully for the rest of my life.  But, there are no guarantees.  I think I am prepared for a chance encounter, should it occur. 
For someone else, who is totally unaware of my or everyone else's living situation, to further insist it is unreasonable, or unfathomable for me to be prepared to prevail in a horrific situation, is NO humanitarian.  And certainly NOT in favor of my best interests.  And, suggests that their own interests, whatever that may be, are far more valuable and important than mine.  What justifies such superiority?

I would ask why you would wish that I die in such an encounter with a sadistic killer, rather than survive and remove a sadistic killer from the common social pool?  How does my family's death, benefit you?

Regards,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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fuzzybutt

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2009, 02:34:41 PM »
3 words for your daughter  nuts, eyes, throat

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2009, 02:51:15 PM »
Man, I don't know why I'm jumping into this...
I still think self-defense and pepper spray are the better options.  According to this 75% of police officers who are shot, are actually shot with their own guns. Now, I'm not saying that that's an absolute and infallible figure, but the concept is simple enough- criminal wrests gun from cop- a trained professional- and blasts him.

Consider the young woman we're *actually* supposed to be talking about here.  Even if she's been shooting her whole life, if some big guy gets the drop on her, overpowers her, she could lose control of the gun.  Even if this guy started out with just his bare hands, or a pair of 'knuckles, or a knife, now he has a gun.  A gun his prints are on, so he'll probably be taking it with him.

I don't care one iota who sleeps with what kind of lead-hurtling device where, it's everyone's own right to do what they feel is necessary, whether it saves them or gets them arrested. End of story. 

The topic we left long ago is how a young woman can best defend herself in a shady neighborhood.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2009, 02:56:15 PM »
It appears that the current arguement for continuing easy gun ownership is based on the need for individuals to protect themselves from each other.  Do you really think that the citizens of the US would or could overthrow a bad federal government?

It's both.  But, it is not "each other", as you impolitely suggest.  It's Law abiding citizens against the criminal element that the protection is required.

Surely, you have criminals in Canada.  Are we Americans to assume that you have the same intents and sensibilities as your criminals exhibit?  Surely, if all Americans are the same, a similar judgment can be made for Canadians, too.

Secondly, yes we could overthrow the government.  Don't forget that with small arms, you can acquire larger ones.

Do you recall the overthrow of the Romanian government?  The action began with small arms.  Then the Military took sides along with some Generals.  The Military arsenal of the Romanian government was far superior to the general population.  The government was still overthrown.

Could it have been bloodier, sure.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2009, 03:45:10 PM »
Another "massacre" in Alabama today....enough said.

Mick
Interesting that after you were done with this thread, this post was irresistible to flippantly toss out there.
It is also interesting that you would focus and place higher value on this ghoulish event to the exclusion of other "massacres" occurring in the same daily time frame.

Perhaps you'll enjoy these other massacres as well:
123 "massacres" on American highways
13  "massacres" due to drowning
34  "massacres" due to falls  (Not sure how many of these were from being pushed.)
11  "massacres" from fires  (certainly some were arson.)
6    "massacres" from surgical/medical adventures/misadventures.
84  "massacres"from suicides

I suppose you'll wish to completely overlook and ignore the  72 "massacres" prevented by "homicide and legal intervention", 60% of which (43) employed a firearm during the intervention.

Guns in our society are so popular among citizens not because they generate crime, but because they are so effective at curtailing / reducing crime.

Like you, I have little doubt the anti-gun democrats will use this event to full advantage towards furthering their gun ban agenda, claiming to "save lives" where in fact it will cause greater tragedies in the future both with and without gun involvement.  The "winner" will be the government gaining more power and control over the citizens, which is and has been the goal all along.

It's a sad day on many levels.

Regards,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline heffay

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2009, 03:53:41 PM »
citing requested
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2009, 04:10:21 PM »
citing requested

Because it happened to be handy at the time, I used the National Center for Health statistics for 1991 and divided by 365.  There are probably more current numbers to select from if anyone is interested in more recent accuracy.

For the "preventions" stat I used data from the same period made available from criminologist Professor Gary Kleck.
A more current reference:
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html
Every 13 seconds an American gun owner uses a firearm in defense against a criminal.

regards,

edit: I admit, I'm getting lazy.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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upperlake04

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2009, 04:23:13 PM »
TT - I'm not so sure your countrymen are in agreement with you on the terror and evil lurking in your nation.

Crime Statistics > Perception of safety > Walking in dark (most recent) by country

Rank      Countries     Amount  (top to bottom)   
#1      Sweden:            85%     
#2      Canada:            82%     
#3      United States:    82%     
#4      Netherlands:    81%     
#5      Finland:            81%     
#6      Denmark:            81%     
#7      Austria:            78%     
#8      Japan:            78%     
#9      Belgium:            77%     
#10   France:            77%     
#11   Switzerland:    77%     
#12   United Kingdom:    70%     
#13   Italy:            65%     
#14   Australia:            64%     
#15   New Zealand:    62%     
   Weighted average:    76.0%      

Quote
Guns in our society are so popular among citizens not because they generate crime, but because they are so effective at curtailing / reducing crime.

  I'm not sure why you refuse to consider that there could be a correlation in the volume of firearms in the US and the rate they are used. If these stats below are correct, and many potential crimes in the US were prevented by firearms as you suggest, I am fortunate to live where I do and trust my umbrella.
 
Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country
     
  Rank   Countries             Amount   
#1      South Africa:    0.719782 per 1,000 people     
#2      Colombia:            0.509801 per 1,000 people     
#3      Thailand:            0.312093 per 1,000 people     
#4      Zimbabwe:       0.0491736 per 1,000 people     
#5      Mexico:            0.0337938 per 1,000 people     
#6      Belarus:            0.0321359 per 1,000 people     
#7      Costa Rica:    0.0313745 per 1,000 people     
#8      United States:    0.0279271 per 1,000 people     
#9      Uruguay:            0.0245902 per 1,000 people     
#10   Lithuania:            0.0230748 per 1,000 people     
#11   Slovakia:            0.021543 per 1,000 people     
#12   Czech Republic:    0.0207988 per 1,000 people     
#13   Estonia:            0.0157539 per 1,000 people     
#14   Latvia:            0.0131004 per 1,000 people     
#15   Macedonia          0.0127139 per 1,000 people     
#16   Bulgaria:            0.00845638 per 1,000 people     
#17   Portugal:            0.00795003 per 1,000 people     
#18   Slovenia:            0.00596718 per 1,000 people     
#19   Switzerland:    0.00534117 per 1,000 people     
#20   Canada:            0.00502972 per 1,000 people     
#21   Germany:            0.00465844 per 1,000 people     
#22   Moldova:            0.00448934 per 1,000 people     
#23   Hungary:            0.00439692 per 1,000 people     
#24   Poland:            0.0043052  per 1,000 people     
#25   Ukraine:            0.00368109 per 1,000 people     
#26   Ireland:            0.00298805 per 1,000 people     
#27   Australia:            0.00293678 per 1,000 people     
#28   Denmark:            0.00257732 per 1,000 people     
#29   Spain:            0.0024045  per 1,000 people     
#30   Azerbaijan:    0.00227503 per 1,000 people     
#31   New Zealand:    0.00173482 per 1,000 people     
#32   United Kingdom:    0.00102579 per 1,000 people     
   Weighted average:    0.1 per 1,000 people      

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2009, 04:31:53 PM »
Quote
Perhaps you'll enjoy these other massacres as well:

If i enjoyed this type of situation why would i be posting to the contrary.

Quote
Guns in our society are so popular among citizens not because they generate crime

You could also reverse that theory and it would be just as accurate.

Quote
Like you, I have little doubt the anti-gun democrats will use this event to full advantage towards furthering their gun ban agenda, claiming to "save lives" where in fact it will cause greater tragedies in the future both with and without gun involvement.  The "winner" will be the government gaining more power and control over the citizens, which is and has been the goal all along.


Now you are starting to sound paranoid. Once again, and because you like putting words into my mouth, I AM NOT ANTI GUNS, i just don't think that if everyone has the ability to carry a concealed weapon we would all be safer and no amount of banter will convince me or any one else of this opinion. You must remember that this is part of your culture and for that reason you just don't see anyone elses point, you haven't once even conceded the fact that you could be wrong because you live in the middle of this and it is the "norm". Sometimes you need to sit outside and look at the picture to see everything from all perspectives. And i must say whoever told you that we "solve" everything with "fisticufs" is quite funny and ridiculous and if this is the reason you never ventured down under then that a shame because that is a load of rubbish  and one of the most stupid things i have ever heard, { i will show this post to my friends for light humour} I am not trying to offend you TT but you now seem to be quite irritated and need to lighten up a bit, i will never conform to your way of thinking, i believe in defending myself and family as previously noted and you must also know we Aussies are a staunch bunch and will stand beside you as well in defense of evil, but there is absolutely no way you will ever convince me that if everyone is armed we would be better off...................never.

Enjoy your day, don't take this difference of opinion personally and peace.

Mick

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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2009, 04:51:15 PM »
Quote
Perhaps you'll enjoy these other massacres as well:

If i enjoyed this type of situation why would i be posting to the contrary.

Quote
Guns in our society are so popular among citizens not because they generate crime

You could also reverse that theory and it would be just as accurate.

Quote
Like you, I have little doubt the anti-gun democrats will use this event to full advantage towards furthering their gun ban agenda, claiming to "save lives" where in fact it will cause greater tragedies in the future both with and without gun involvement.  The "winner" will be the government gaining more power and control over the citizens, which is and has been the goal all along.


Now you are starting to sound paranoid. Once again, and because you like putting words into my mouth, I AM NOT ANTI GUNS, i just don't think that if everyone has the ability to carry a concealed weapon we would all be safer and no amount of banter will convince me or any one else of this opinion. You must remember that this is part of your culture and for that reason you just don't see anyone elses point, you haven't once even conceded the fact that you could be wrong because you live in the middle of this and it is the "norm". Sometimes you need to sit outside and look at the picture to see everything from all perspectives. And i must say whoever told you that we "solve" everything with "fisticufs" is quite funny and ridiculous and if this is the reason you never ventured down under then that a shame because that is a load of rubbish  and one of the most stupid things i have ever heard, { i will show this post to my friends for light humour} I am not trying to offend you TT but you now seem to be quite irritated and need to lighten up a bit, i will never conform to your way of thinking, i believe in defending myself and family as previously noted and you must also know we Aussies are a staunch bunch and will stand beside you as well in defense of evil, but there is absolutely no way you will ever convince me that if everyone is armed we would be better off...................never.

Enjoy your day, don't take this difference of opinion personally and peace.

Mick




California is one of the most liberal states in our Country. Guns are not real popular. (unless your a meth head living in the middle of the desert)

I don't think he is admiting he may be wrong because of the culture of his area. I think it's a belief he has, much like yours that he is dead wrong and you will never agree with him.

Food for thought.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2009, 05:13:53 PM »
Quote
Guns in our society are so popular among citizens not because they generate crime, but because they are so effective at curtailing / reducing crime.

  I'm not sure why you refuse to consider that there could be a correlation in the volume of firearms in the US and the rate they are used.

That's simple.  The number of guns in the US increases every year, but the crimes using guns has been decreasing steadily year by year.  If gun availability truly spurred more crime.  Then the criminal use of guns would increase yearly.  It doesn't, so the attempted correlation is false.

If these stats below are correct, ...

...and that's a good question.  If you believe them, why don't you wish to know on what basis they were accumulated?  I didn't spend a lot of time wading about the site, but I found no statement or info about how the numbers were collected or tallied or if there was any weighting done toward stat collection.  Can you explain where the raw numbers came from and on what parameters they were based?  I haven't found that.
 
Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country
        http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php   
I actually warned about this earlier.  Is a self defense shooting a murder?  Is a suicide with a firearm murder?  Is a police shooting murder? etc.  I have seen this very stat presented that does include these.  No, I need to see the collection basis to put any credibility on the final stat.  Until then, it's just a random number used as fodder for a baseless argument.
You can always find a stat the supports your predisposed conclusion.  If you can't find or observe how the stat was collected, it can easily be misconstrued.

I try to follow the scientific approach and use meaningful relevant data in order to come to a conclusion.  Using this approach, I was forced to switch from an anti-gun position to a pro-gun position.  I've yet to find an anti-gun position statement based on objective data, that truly supported the anti-gun position.  Each argument was biased with selected data skewed to support only the position originally preconceived.

 Regards,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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upperlake04

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2009, 06:08:39 PM »
Quote
The number of guns in the US increases every year, but the crimes using guns has been decreasing steadily year by year.  If gun availability truly spurred more crime.  Then the criminal use of guns would increase yearly.  It doesn't, so the attempted correlation is false.

 And where might be the evidence of this 'fact'?  :)  If it is true then it is encouraging.
 The table above suggests the murder rate by firearms is 5.5 times the Canadian rate. I can't think of any other factor besides volume of firearm ownership that could explain the huge difference.  Surely you guys are as nice as us. :D 
  The tables were produced from data provided by member countries through the  "United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems".  There is a manual available for $20. which outlines the methodology for data collection if you're interested. I am but not enough to buy it.
  I have a vague feeling that you aren't inclined to change you're position anyway. ;D

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2009, 06:32:33 PM »
Quote
The number of guns in the US increases every year, but the crimes using guns has been decreasing steadily year by year.  If gun availability truly spurred more crime.  Then the criminal use of guns would increase yearly.  It doesn't, so the attempted correlation is false.

 And where might be the evidence of this 'fact'?  :)  If it is true then it is encouraging.
 The table above suggests the murder rate by firearms is 5.5 times the Canadian rate. I can't think of any other factor besides volume of firearm ownership that could explain the huge difference.  Surely you guys are as nice as us. :D 
  The tables were produced from data provided by member countries through the  "United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems".  There is a manual available for $20. which outlines the methodology for data collection if you're interested. I am but not enough to buy it.
  I have a vague feeling that you aren't inclined to change you're position anyway. ;D
Well numbers are interesting. The reported population of  Canada is a touch over 33M, interestingly enough that is about equal to that of California. Considering your land mass, it is pretty sparse up there. Would you think population kind of skews the numbers. Let's see the US has 300M people. Maybe the 5.5 times number works in our favor.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2009, 06:35:50 PM »
Quote
Guns in our society are so popular among citizens not because they generate crime

You could also reverse that theory and it would be just as accurate.
Except that the available data does not support your statement.

Now you are starting to sound paranoid.
There is ample historical evidence to prove other wise, both at the state level and the Federal level going back to the 1968 gun control act.  At this point, it would seem unlikely you'd find that of any interest, though.

Once again, and because you like putting words into my mouth, I AM NOT ANTI GUNS, i just don't think that if everyone has the ability to carry a concealed weapon we would all be safer and no amount of banter will convince me or any one else of this opinion.
>I'm< putting words in your mouth?  You seriously don't see the dicotomy of what you just typed?  If you were a criminal and you had your choice of attacking someone you knew to be armed vs, one in a bathing suit, the gun wouldn't effect your decision on which to attack?  If you knew some were able to carry concealed, you would still be indiscriminate about who you attacked?
Do you also feel the attackers are just misunderstood individuals that don't really mean any harm?  (It's a joke, inserted here.  But, there are actually people that do believe this, nonetheless.)
It does seem that you have defined your position as a religious belief, rather than making a conclusion based on factual data.   No point in arguing with someone having deep religious beliefs, whatever the religion.  NO factual data will make a true believer sway their position.  But, I have do what I can to keep anyone's religious belief from getting me or my family becoming a massacre statistic, however tragic it may be after the fact.


Sometimes you need to sit outside and look at the picture to see everything from all perspectives. 
Actually, I believe I did just that.  And, that is why I switched position from anti-gun to pro-gun.  I frequently review subjective data, and then decide which position is more supportable.  So far, nothing as made made me change positions, if anything, it is continually strengthened.


And i must say whoever told you that we "solve" everything with "fisticufs" is quite funny and ridiculous and if this is the reason you never ventured down under then that a shame because that is a load of rubbish  and one of the most stupid things i have ever heard, { i will show this post to my friends for light humour}
Actually, I got this impression/information from another Australian who has posed frequently on this forum, and a couple other Aussie's I incidentally met.  I subsequently removed the location from my "bucket list".  Don't take it too badly, there are other countries removed from the list, too.


I am not trying to offend you TT but you now seem to be quite irritated and need to lighten up a bit, i will never conform to your way of thinking, i believe in defending myself and family as previously noted and you must also know we Aussies are a staunch bunch and will stand beside you as well in defense of evil, but there is absolutely no way you will ever convince me that if everyone is armed we would be better off...................never.

And THAT, as they say, is THAT.

I do admit to some fatigue.  Perhaps we can unite over a different cause.
Be well,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2009, 06:53:03 PM »
Quote
The number of guns in the US increases every year, but the crimes using guns has been decreasing steadily year by year.  If gun availability truly spurred more crime.  Then the criminal use of guns would increase yearly.  It doesn't, so the attempted correlation is false.

 And where might be the evidence of this 'fact'?  :)  If it is true then it is encouraging.
OK, I'll go dig it up for you a bit later.

  I have a vague feeling that you aren't inclined to change you're position anyway. ;D
With as much research as I've done (more than most, I think), the data has mostly formed my position.   But, so has my understanding of animal behavior traits and how they change with population density.  It is not just all about numbers, though they weigh heavily.  It is also about accepted human behaviors within a culture, and how humans relate to one another within that society.

Depending on where you live in the US, we have significant gang factors here where laws are simply hurdles to avoid, including the acquisition of guns.  Government intervention of removing guns from ordinary citizens, simply won't prevent these gangs from getting them, and make the gang's power and problem increase.  The same is true for nearly all the criminal element, who by definition won't abide by gun control laws.  In fact, they welcome gun control and confiscation laws.  It gives them the edge in their nefarious adventures.

But now, it's Dinner time...

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline gregimotis

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2009, 07:06:23 PM »
Consider the young woman we're *actually* supposed to be talking about here.  Even if she's been shooting her whole life, if some big guy gets the drop on her, overpowers her, she could lose control of the gun.

The topic we left long ago is how a young woman can best defend herself in a shady neighborhood.




Correct.  Awareness, preparation, and appropriate response are all to be found in a reputable Self-defense class for women.  Such classes are available in any metropolitan area.  A short class, such as a three day-er will focus on prevention strategies with a little 'how to bite, slaw, make noise'.  A longer class will drill the awareness avoidance, self defense reflexes into a person who cares to invest the time.

This is what a lay-person needs most for self defense.  Take a short class, then get a weapon/take a longer class if you wish. 

Horse > Cart.
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

upperlake04

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2009, 07:17:54 PM »
Considering your land mass, it is pretty sparse up there. Would you think population kind of skews the numbers.

But, so has my understanding of animal behavior traits and how they change with population density.   It is also about accepted human behaviors within a culture, and how humans relate to one another within that society.

  Well, that is another factor I had forgotten. Yes, of course when people are packed together the elbows come up. I forget that living in a part of the continent where strangers in oncoming vehicles and in farmyards regularly wave to me on my rides.
  BTW, just you two know that I'm not anti-gun, I own handguns and long guns but never think of them as protection from bad guys, only from bears and other big biting critters in the bush.


  

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2009, 07:32:55 PM »
Considering your land mass, it is pretty sparse up there. Would you think population kind of skews the numbers.

But, so has my understanding of animal behavior traits and how they change with population density.   It is also about accepted human behaviors within a culture, and how humans relate to one another within that society.

  Well, that is another factor I had forgotten. Yes, of course when people are packed together the elbows come up. I forget that living in a part of the continent where strangers in oncoming vehicles and in farmyards regularly wave to me on my rides.
  BTW, just you two know that I'm not anti-gun, I own handguns and long guns but never think of them as protection from bad guys, only from bears and other big biting critters in the bush.


  
Lake, i hear ya Bro. We have some biting critters too.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline seaweb11

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2009, 08:40:10 PM »
..............Gabriola looks Unpopulated ;D 8) 8)


ah, a Pollyanna utopia......... ;)      Need to pay a ferry fair to rob me :)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #120 on: March 11, 2009, 11:39:45 PM »
Quote
The number of guns in the US increases every year, but the crimes using guns has been decreasing steadily year by year.  If gun availability truly spurred more crime.  Then the criminal use of guns would increase yearly.  It doesn't, so the attempted correlation is false.

 And where might be the evidence of this 'fact'?  :)  If it is true then it is encouraging.
OK, I'll go dig it up for you a bit later.
I tried to get the most current info for you.
The fact is; no one really knows how many guns are actually in the US.  Estimates are between 200 an 275 million depending on who you wish to listen.
The BATF does count the number manufactured and imported yearly, and this averages about 4.9 million per year added.
There isn't a real method for knowing how many guns are eliminated per year. Government seized guns are often destroyed.  But, that rate is only about 100,000/yr
Guns last on average about 50 years, but can last far longer or shorter depending on how its used, kinda like Motorcycles.  We also do not know how many guns are imported or exported illegally per year. But, I think it is pretty safe to say that the amount of guns in US is steadily increasing.
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/numbers.html

Below are some gun related crime stats from the usdoj.  I hadn't seen the latest uptick in the charts which does spoil the downward trend.   ::)  However, Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
...stated "The GSS survey and other proxy measures of gun ownership do not provide adequate macro-level detail to allow conclusions on the relationship between overall firearm ownership and gun violence"

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

I'm definitely getting bleary eyed looking at all this data...  Need a break...

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

salvatore13

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2009, 12:29:05 AM »
Quote
Quote
author=TwoTired link=topic=47686.msg503774#msg503774 date=1236806783]
[Dear TwoTired (I don´t know your real name),
My name is in the Signature file below.  Has been there for well over a year, and shows up in every post I make.

I am sorry, Lloyd. Is it Lloyd? I was not sure that was a name. Sorry anyway I not so used to foreign names as sometimes I mix city names with persons.

Quote
Quote
author=salvatore13 link=topic=47686.msg503434#msg503434 date=1236767710]
I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way.
I'll assume this is genuine.

You don't have to say it as if you do me a favour. If I say anything is because I mean it. I don´t know if you use to say things you don't mean. I don't.

Quote
By the way, can you tell me please what has to do the sentence "In the fields of observation, chance favors only the mind that is prepared" with the use of guns in your country?.
Ok, I'll try.  I'm still not convinced you actually want to understand, as I have already explained it in a previous post.

Maybe all the rest of the world that don´t agree with you is because they "don´t want to understand". If I get it is that simple. If I want to understand I will agree with you, If I don´t agree it's because I don´t want to understand. Good way to be always right! Have you ever consider just a little chance that others' opinions can be right? I don´t mean mines, of course, but maybe others...

Quote
I expect you may find some of the above just plain silly.  (Hopefully, anyway)
Those are your words.

Quote
I would ask why you would wish that I die in such an encounter with a sadistic killer, rather than survive and remove a sadistic killer from the common social pool?  How does my family's death, benefit you?

Lloyd, It's a far old trick when discussing to put someone in the position of having to defend himself for the things he's never said. Good try, but I wouldn't wish you to die and of course your family death won´t benefit me or anybody.

Hope this time you belive what I say. Next time you don't need to be ironic when admitting so.

Anyway I'm glad you've reconsider your opinion and keep talking and discussing. You can always learn from others when talking (I mean me learning from you and others, of course).

Regards,


Offline winnipeg550guy

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2009, 12:04:12 PM »
 Ninja gear !!! get her dressed up hardcore ninja style she'll be able to silently slip past all evil doers.

 If not these could help http://www.tbotech.com/ninjagear.htm




 Or a cell phone stun gun
http://www.tbotech.com/cellphonestungun.htm
 
Lip stick pepper spray
http://www.tbotech.com/lipstick-pepper-spray.htm

Key chain alarm
http://www.tbotech.com/personal-alarms.htm

« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 12:10:22 PM by winnipeg550guy »
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2009, 12:15:23 PM »
yeah man, nobody gets the drop on a ninja...  ;D
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Protection in the city
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2009, 12:42:34 PM »
All that Ninja stuff is banned (possession AND sale) in CA. (unless they are soft rubber floppy things)
Without searching, my money says MA won't allow it either.

Politicians prefer unarmed peasants.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.