Topic: Gun control (The official gun thread!)

[cudjo]

"gun control means using both hands"
 Posdnuos

[edbikerii]

If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens.

Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers

[edbikerii]

yes Cudjo, there are a whole lot of people with strange side-effects in their brains from thinking that "sex is naughty".

but then there's also:
"sex is power"
"sex is control"
"sex is lucrative"
"I'm special because I'm sexy"
"he/she is special because they're sexy"
"I can't live without him/her, they're so sexy"
"I'm worthless because I'm not sexy enough"
and lots of other sexually-non-repressed cultural issues that surface as we become less repressed culturally.  Who is to say what is worse?

[bucky katt]

gun control is being able to hit what you aim at

not to imply that gun control is a joke. if the states would just enforce the damn laws on the books there would be alot less trouble IMO

[cudjo]

yes Cudjo, there are a whole lot of people with strange side-effects in their brains from thinking that "sex is naughty".

but then there's also:
"sex is power"
"sex is control"
"sex is lucrative"
"I'm special because I'm sexy"
"he/she is special because they're sexy"
"I can't live without him/her, they're so sexy"
"I'm worthless because I'm not sexy enough"
and lots of other sexually-non-repressed cultural issues that surface as we become less repressed culturally.  Who is to say what is worse?

I agree that we have problems on top of problems here, but IMO even those problems listed are side effects of a culture that comes from repression, even if it is a generation or more back for an individual. I dont think that for the most part people with healthy sexual upbringings end up having these issues to a dramatic degree.

but overall I like the way you think, Edbike. I would guess if we were in the same room, we might be arguing a lot of the same points

CHEERS

[BobbyR]

yes Cudjo, there are a whole lot of people with strange side-effects in their brains from thinking that "sex is naughty".

but then there's also:
"sex is power"
"sex is control"
"sex is lucrative"
"I'm special because I'm sexy"
"he/she is special because they're sexy"
"I can't live without him/her, they're so sexy"
"I'm worthless because I'm not sexy enough"
and lots of other sexually-non-repressed cultural issues that surface as we become less repressed culturally.  Who is to say what is worse?

I agree that we have problems on top of problems here, but IMO even those problems listed are side effects of a culture that comes from repression, even if it is a generation or more back for an individual. I dont think that for the most part people with healthy sexual upbringings end up having these issues to a dramatic degree.

but overall I like the way you think, Edbike. I would guess if we were in the same room, we might be arguing a lot of the same points

CHEERS

I agree with Cudjo. The US is a very dualistic society. Part of this cultural problem stems from Puritans that were practically expelled from England for their extreme views. A group actually later went back to England as the Plymouth Brotherhood. This Puritan culture set the code of conduct in this very empty wilderness. Much of this Puritan influence remains today. That is the duality I spoke of.
 
The US was very much isolated from Europe by distance after it's founding. That is why US English differs from UK English, there were no books coming over from England and misspellings were common. Noah Webster included some of these common misspellings in his Dictionary along with some streamlining.

The US was also culturally isolated from Europe. Europe was quite well established by the time the US was founded. The early citizens of the US were very busy surviving and attempting to build some sort of infrastructure where none had existed before. The Puritan ethic was simply carried on in it's basic form, hard work, strict moral code, etc.

The culture of Europe continued to evolve while the US was busy building and had little time to ponder the fine points.
The firearm was a utility tool in the US, it provided food for the table, the elimination of crop eating animals, and self defense. The gun that won the West was not a Colt pistol, it was a smooth bore shotgun. It was versatile in that you could load it many different ways depending upon need. It became as common place to have a firearm as it was an axe.

The US is very hard to understand, we export culture, we do not import it. We are the last holdout to convert to metric and it will be a long time before we will buy our gasoline in Liters, and buy a kilo of sugar. Almost all fasteners used today are Metric because it suits us. US Americans do what suits us, we are very pragmatic since all of our Ancestors came here for pragmatic reasons. They were living so badly in Europe, they were willing to take a chance. So, our pragmatism is passed down to us by our immigrant Parents or Grandparents. The new immigrants are just as pragmatic as the earlier group. 

While we have retained much of this Puritan ethic, the Constitution has allowed us to be the major consumer and producer of Pornography in the World, we just do not admit it - that is the dual part.

You will never get a consensus on this private ownership of firearms in the US, it is a cultural thing. If there were not pro and anti gun factions in the US, it would be a non issue, but both sides keep the pot boiling. If not for these zealots banging away at each other, the average Joe would have a rifle in the closet, or a Pistol in the nightstand and life would go on as it always has.

In States with liberal Pistol Laws, nothing unusual happens. People go about their daily lives as they do in States with strict Laws. I do not feel safer in one than the other.

I do own Pistols and I do not like being branded as Pro or Anti, I would like to simply be left alone. It is in my nature. If you want to take something away from me I will resist. I think most US Americans feel that way.       

     

[BobbyR]

Rape is a about violence and not about sex. It is the violent violation of another human being. When confronted with violence, there is little choice but to either escape to use violence in return if escape is not possible. if a Woman, or a Man is confronted with that situation, they should have every right to use whatever means possible to prevent it or stop it. There is no middle ground in my mind.

[edbikerii]

Yes, I can imagine that many of the thought patterns I listed can stem from repression patterns from our ancestors.  Probably much of the "in your face" sexuality only sells because of mental repression that gives it shock value.  Perhaps, over time, things will equalize when society becomes bored with all the in-your-face deviance.

Yes, I think we do agree on this.  You've convinced me to see things in a way I hadn't thought of before.  Good job, cudjo.

Now if only somebody could identify a "healthy sexual upbringing" I'll feel better about how to raise my kids.   

yes Cudjo, there are a whole lot of people with strange side-effects in their brains from thinking that "sex is naughty".

but then there's also:
"sex is power"
"sex is control"
"sex is lucrative"
"I'm special because I'm sexy"
"he/she is special because they're sexy"
"I can't live without him/her, they're so sexy"
"I'm worthless because I'm not sexy enough"
and lots of other sexually-non-repressed cultural issues that surface as we become less repressed culturally.  Who is to say what is worse?

I agree that we have problems on top of problems here, but IMO even those problems listed are side effects of a culture that comes from repression, even if it is a generation or more back for an individual. I dont think that for the most part people with healthy sexual upbringings end up having these issues to a dramatic degree.

but overall I like the way you think, Edbike. I would guess if we were in the same room, we might be arguing a lot of the same points

CHEERS

[kghost]

+1 on Bobby's post

Great post BobbyR.

[edbikerii]

Yes Bobby, not only do areas with liberal Pistol Laws have nothing particularly unusual going on, but municipalities with overly restrictive handgun laws invariably have much higher handgun violence rates than the norm.

I hope not to be characterized as a "gun nut" or a zealot, but I recognize that making criminals out of innocent people simply because they choose to own guns is the first step towards taking away lots of other rights.  Oppressive governments have done this time and time again throughout human history (Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Idi Amin Dada, and many other murderous tyrants instituted gun controls before committing genocide against defenseless, unarmed, innocent people).

That being said, I, as a gun owner, have insufficient reason to foment revolution today.  My weapons are secured and stored carefully, coming out once in a while for hunting or a fun day of target shooting at the range.

In States with liberal Pistol Laws, nothing unusual happens. People go about their daily lives as they do in States with strict Laws. I do not feel safer in one than the other.

I do own Pistols and I do not like being branded as Pro or Anti, I would like to simply be left alone. It is in my nature. If you want to take something away from me I will resist. I think most US Americans feel that way.       

     

[GoatBaSS]

We fear what we do not understand...

[Terry in Australia]

I've recently had cable TV hooked up at home and there's actually a crime channel with some good documentaries like "Gangland", "America's Toughest Prisons", "Cops", "Street Patrol", "Lockup", "American Nazi", "America's worst Serial Killers", "America's most wanted", "Outlaw Bikers", and the list goes on.

One show quoted statistics that there are 7 million convicted felons in jail in the US in jail or on probation at any one time, and up to 40 million ex-convicts on the street, which is more than twice the entire population of Australia!

I apologize for my previous comments, I now see why you guys believe that you need guns to protect yourselves, if I lived in the US I'd definitely have several guns, considering that (according to those figures) as many as one in 6 folks out there may well intend to do me some harm. That's scary............ Cheers, Terry.

[cudjo]

Yes, I can imagine that many of the thought patterns I listed can stem from repression patterns from our ancestors.  Probably much of the "in your face" sexuality only sells because of mental repression that gives it shock value.  Perhaps, over time, things will equalize when society becomes bored with all the in-your-face deviance.

Yes, I think we do agree on this.  You've convinced me to see things in a way I hadn't thought of before.  Good job, cudjo.

Now if only somebody could identify a "healthy sexual upbringing" I'll feel better about how to raise my kids.   

the only advise i have for  teaching your kids to have a healthy  sexuality is.... "be real". I know it is veague, but if you know how u feel about sex, and you dont think that you are caught up on anything. tell your kids the truth about as much as you can as soon as they ask or show interest, dont try and hide things. I know that this is tough advise especially for those of us with girls, but I think that something that is at the crux of this situation ( both guns and sex)and many others... is the reality of experience not jiving with what one has been told or taught.

[Frankencake]

I've recently had cable TV hooked up at home and there's actually a crime channel with some good documentaries like "Gangland", "America's Toughest Prisons", "Cops", "Street Patrol", "Lockup", "American Nazi", "America's worst Serial Killers", "America's most wanted", "Outlaw Bikers", and the list goes on.

One show quoted statistics that there are 7 million convicted felons in jail in the US in jail or on probation at any one time, and up to 40 million ex-convicts on the street, which is more than twice the entire population of Australia!

I apologize for my previous comments, I now see why you guys believe that you need guns to protect yourselves, if I lived in the US I'd definitely have several guns, considering that (according to those figures) as many as one in 6 folks out there may well intend to do me some harm. That's scary............ Cheers, Terry.

I think that we passed the 10% mark in our US prisons.  The unemployment rate is almost as high.

[BobbyR]

I've recently had cable TV hooked up at home and there's actually a crime channel with some good documentaries like "Gangland", "America's Toughest Prisons", "Cops", "Street Patrol", "Lockup", "American Nazi", "America's worst Serial Killers", "America's most wanted", "Outlaw Bikers", and the list goes on.

One show quoted statistics that there are 7 million convicted felons in jail in the US in jail or on probation at any one time, and up to 40 million ex-convicts on the street, which is more than twice the entire population of Australia!

I apologize for my previous comments, I now see why you guys believe that you need guns to protect yourselves, if I lived in the US I'd definitely have several guns, considering that (according to those figures) as many as one in 6 folks out there may well intend to do me some harm. That's scary............ Cheers, Terry.

You get used to it Terry, keeps you on your toes Mate. Kinda like commando training every day.  

[bucky katt]

I've recently had cable TV hooked up at home and there's actually a crime channel with some good documentaries like "Gangland", "America's Toughest Prisons", "Cops", "Street Patrol", "Lockup", "American Nazi", "America's worst Serial Killers", "America's most wanted", "Outlaw Bikers", and the list goes on.

One show quoted statistics that there are 7 million convicted felons in jail in the US in jail or on probation at any one time, and up to 40 million ex-convicts on the street, which is more than twice the entire population of Australia!

I apologize for my previous comments, I now see why you guys believe that you need guns to protect yourselves, if I lived in the US I'd definitely have several guns, considering that (according to those figures) as many as one in 6 folks out there may well intend to do me some harm. That's scary............ Cheers, Terry.

is that Discovery ID by any chance Terry? oh, good to have you back!

[BeSeeingYou]

I've recently had cable TV hooked up at home and there's actually a crime channel with some good documentaries like "Gangland", "America's Toughest Prisons", "Cops", "Street Patrol", "Lockup", "American Nazi", "America's worst Serial Killers", "America's most wanted", "Outlaw Bikers", and the list goes on.

One show quoted statistics that there are 7 million convicted felons in jail in the US in jail or on probation at any one time, and up to 40 million ex-convicts on the street, which is more than twice the entire population of Australia!

I apologize for my previous comments, I now see why you guys believe that you need guns to protect yourselves, if I lived in the US I'd definitely have several guns, considering that (according to those figures) as many as one in 6 folks out there may well intend to do me some harm. That's scary............ Cheers, Terry.

I would not take those shows to seriously.  For sure that stuff happens but it is all sensationalized for ratings.  The U.S. does have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world but they are not all violent offenders.  Because of the "War on Drugs" many of these people are in on drug related offenses.  I have lived in a major urban area, usually within a three mile radius of the downtown center, for 33 years.  I have never witnessed a violent crime nor ever seen a gun pulled in anger.  I have seen my share of kids stealing bicycles and other minor stuff and some kid broke into my house and stole my VCR once.   I have had a friend or two being victims of muggers or robbed but many of my friends could report a similar experience.  So we are not all living out an experience that you might see on da TV.  You might notice these shows never take place in Minneapolis.  Sad to say and don't mean to offend but many of the major urban areas are sh!tholes compared to what we have here.

[Terry in Australia]

I would not take those shows to seriously.  For sure that stuff happens but it is all sensationalized for ratings.  The U.S. does have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world but they are not all violent offenders.  Because of the "War on Drugs" many of these people are in on drug related offenses.  I have lived in a major urban area, usually within a three mile radius of the downtown center, for 33 years.  I have never witnessed a violent crime nor ever seen a gun pulled in anger.  I have seen my share of kids stealing bicycles and other minor stuff and some kid broke into my house and stole my VCR once.   I have had a friend or two being victims of muggers or robbed but many of my friends could report a similar experience.  So we are not all living out an experience that you might see on da TV.  You might notice these shows never take place in Minneapolis.  Sad to say and don't mean to offend but many of the major urban areas are sh!tholes compared to what we have here.

That's good to know mate, we get some weird stats here too, mainly because our Aboriginal population are pandered to by the authorities, and literally get away with murder, due to the Australian government bowing to "political correctness" and recognizing "tribal law" which condones violent retribution for "tribal offences". But the majority of our Aboriginal's (who are "over-represented" in our jail stats, compared proportionally to whites) in jail are there due to alcohol and drug related offences. 

My sister lives in the hills around Los Angeles and she's witnessed many gun related incidents in the 20 years she's lived in the US, (an armed robbery, a shootout between two drivers on a freeway, and a domestic murder to name a few) but she tells me that LA is worse than many other areas, but the weather is similar to Oz, so that's why she likes it there. Cheers, Terry.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, a lot of the "criminals" locked up these days are non-violent drug offenders.

So how come the CIA doesn't get locked up for being the biggest drug runners in history??

[RatBikeRandy]

srust - I think you are correct about Minneapolis.  Prince said that he lived there because the cold keeps the bad people away.

Unfortunately I lived near and worked in Chicago for 3 long years.  Trust me - I saw a lot including 4 people shot and killed at the same address an hour after I left one of my field stops.  I worked for the CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention).  We had another employee doing the same job in another city (Washington, DC if I remember correctly) stabbed in the eye on a field stop.  A Cook County employee assaulted and raped IN HER OFFICE - this occured at the jail where I was stationed for a year or so.

By the way - it is illegal to have a handgun in Chicago, but that didn't stop the 4 people from being shot.  I nearly fainted when I saw the news that night.  If I had been there "at the wrong time" as they say . . .

I also had my truck stolen at the end of a Remington 1100 semi-auto 12 gauge at a college in rural Georgia of all places.  I was delivering pizza while I attended the same college.  The more I think about it while writing, it seems that I am lucky to be here.

I do have a concealed carry permit and have a Kel-Tec .380 that carries well.  Nice to have a little protection just in case I am ever in a bad predicament.  With the bad economy, displaced New Orleans Katrina refugees and overall population increase crime has increased in the rural area near Atlanta where I live.

[jaknight]

So,

Now that gun violence and rape has been traced to and placed at the feet of too strict "repressive", unrealistic upbringing.... it begs the question....

Where did our ideas of right and wrong come from?

Why did those ideas of right and wrong work in the past, but not now?

And what is our ideas of right and wrong now?

What is it with younger people......

The real issue isn’t useless gun laws.

It is how, in just two generations, we could go from rearing children that every adult and stranger could trust implicitly with a deadly weapon, to rearing whatever they are we produce today?

Guns aren’t the problem; it’s character. Character has been defined as “how you act when nobody’s looking”.

Compared with learning to teach children character, the effectiveness of any gun law is like sticking your finger in a dyke full of holes; the water just goes around it and you aren’t free to get on with your lawful business.

~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, I don't know mate, it's currently popular apparently, to blame our poor parenting for the shocking offspring we've apparently produced, but I think that the kids of today, are generally just as well behaved as previous generations, I'm very proud of my two 20-something sons, they're certainly better kids than I was!

Apart from the problems that we have here in Oz with the influx of migrants from poorer behaved cultures, (notably Eastern Europe, The Middle East and various African countries) our own population is increasing, and so statistically, as a country's population grows, there are more bad people being born. The US's population has grown 50 percent in the last 30-odd years, so sad but true, there are 50 percent more nuts with guns out there now, than there were back then.

On top of that, a large portion of our fathers and grandfathers generations were killed in all the wars that we were involved in in the 20th century, including many potential mass murderers, rapists, etc, which may well have been a contributory factor in lower crime rates back then too. Sure, we've got some really awful parents out there, but we had them back then, too. Cheers, Terry.    

[BobbyR]

I would suggest to our friends overseas that these stories may give you the impression we live in a Mad Max movie. We don't. I live in NY and you can travel safely though Manhattan and have a wonderful time.

[BobbyR]

Yeah, I don't know mate, it's currently popular apparently, to blame our poor parenting for the shocking offspring we've apparently produced, but I think that the kids of today, are generally just as well behaved as previous generations, I'm very proud of my two 20-something sons, they're certainly better kids than I was!

Apart from the problems that we have here in Oz with the influx of migrants from poorer behaved cultures, (notably Eastern Europe, The Middle East and various African countries) our own population is increasing, and so statistically, as a country's population grows, there are more bad people being born. The US's population has grown 50 percent in the last 30-odd years, so sad but true, there are 50 percent more nuts with guns out there now, than there were back then.

On top of that, a large portion of our fathers and grandfathers generations were killed in all the wars that we were involved in in the 20th century, including many potential mass murderers, rapists, etc, which may well have been a contributory factor in lower crime rates back then too. Sure, we've got some really awful parents out there, but we had them back then, too. Cheers, Terry.    

Quite true, OZ is expeiencing the same conditions we have had with lax immigration. Having said that, I work with many of these recent immigrants and they are hard working honest people who want the best for their kids. When they get a few bucks they usually move out of the "Hood".  They want what I want. 

[bucky katt]

actually, in alot of cities violent crime is down from it's high in the 70's i remember as a kid what a cesspool new york city was in the late 70's. nowhere near as safe then as it is today. i still wish i lived in a place where i didnt feel the need to walk around with a .45acp on my hip and sleep with it under my pillow. home invasions are break ins while homeowners are asleep happen with enough frequency here. my wife also carries, a pre-war walther ppk in .380. she keeps it in her purse at all times (where it's legal to carry)