Author Topic: Gun control (The official gun thread!)  (Read 37265 times)

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Offline cb750k7

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2009, 11:06:16 am »
Thanks for that video cb. Folks, whether you are a gun enthusiast or not we should all be supporters of the second amendment. It is the last defense against a corrupt and capricious government. I think when Ghandi comes down on the side of bearing arms, that says something.
When you take that right away what can you do? Hurl expletives and invectives as they mow you down with their guns?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 02:05:40 pm by Dukiedook »
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2009, 10:47:31 pm »
I am not pro or anti gun more ambivalent if anything, except that I don't think we need automatic assault type guns.  Personally I have little interest in them now but had them when I was younger.  I have lived in the inner city in Minneapolis for 30 years now and have never had the need for one.   I know someone who was robbed an gunpoint awhile back and this brings up an interesting point for discussion.  Before he could even react there was a gun pointed at him.  The thug has the drop on you what to do?  He gave him the $15 in his wallet and that was the end of it.  If my neighbor had a gun and pulled it out the situation instantly escalates.  One or both may be wounded or killed.  There is also the chance that the thug might shoot anyhow.  Unless you have your hand always ready to pull your gun at slightest threat, real or perceived, in many instances how effective is it?  Unless you have police or military training do you really have the training, the experience, and the judgment that comes with it to make split second decisions on the level of threat, the use of deadly force, and the danger to innocent bystanders? I have my doubts.

A gun kept in the house is more likely to be used against you or a family member by someone you know or a family member than it is to be used against a criminal entering your house.  We see it time and time again.  A trial just finished here where someone entered a home at night and took the homeowners shotgun and shot all three family members killing two.  I am not arguing to ban guns but just pointing out that having them in the home does not make you safer.

The argument about protection against tyranny is a phony one.  What separates a democracy from a dictatorship is that a democracy is set up under the rule of law not of men.  No one is above the law.  That is why the so many of us take offense at the last 8 years.  The Bush administration tried to chip away at this most basic concept of democracy.  There are plenty of examples of countries with a long history of democratic rule that have little private gun ownership.  And there are many other examples of a heavily armed populace governed by dictators and warlords.   




« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 11:24:09 pm by srust58 »

billybobobrain

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2009, 11:18:42 pm »
The one thing that people forget about this country the most I think is that we are not a democracy, we are a republic. For the people and by the people. Also I agree with the fact that a person being robbed at gun point does not have time to think about pulling a gun out on the robber, give him the wallet. I think a gun would have stopped a lot of the death that occured at the school shootings that have happend in the past. If you own a gun it is your duty and resposibility to learn how to use it, and get the training neccecary to be afective. If you have a gun in your house and your buddies know were it is kept, your an idiot. Put the damn thing were you can get it and dont let anyone know where it is. You won't get shot in your sleep that way.

Offline cb750k7

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2009, 11:27:14 pm »
The one thing that people forget about this country the most I think is that we are not a democracy, we are a republic. For the people and by the people. Also I agree with the fact that a person being robbed at gun point does not have time to think about pulling a gun out on the robber, give him the wallet.

Here is another opinion..... ;D ;D ;D


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billybobobrain

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2009, 11:32:49 pm »
The one thing that people forget about this country the most I think is that we are not a democracy, we are a republic. For the people and by the people. Also I agree with the fact that a person being robbed at gun point does not have time to think about pulling a gun out on the robber, give him the wallet.

Here is another opinion..... ;D ;D ;D




Now thats what I'm talking about!

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2009, 03:41:22 am »
I am not pro or anti gun more ambivalent if anything,
After reading the rest of your post, I regret to inform you that your arguments are the same as presented by the anti-gun lobby groups.

except that I don't think we need automatic assault type guns.   
These have been banned since 1934.  You have to have a class 3 Federal Firearms License (finger prints, background check, etc.) and then only some states allow these class 3 FFL holders to have an automatic weapon or any parts that may make a weapon fire automatic within their states.
The democrats and the media have been very busy training ignorant persons that if a gun looks similar, they ARE the same, regardless of their function, which is disingenuous at least, if not outright lying.  It a classic "bait and switch" scam. 
BTW, there is a very good reason for having the semi-auto version of these guns.  They are extremely reliable and robust designs.  If you need it to go bang when you pull the trigger, these will do it every time, even if abused.

Personally I have little interest in them now but had them when I was younger. I have lived in the inner city in Minneapolis for 30 years now and have never had the need for one. 
That is wonderful for you.  I hope I never need one either.  But, that is not the same thing as saying no one, or even you, will ever need one.  But, I'm struck with the thought....
Isn't it easy to give up a right that you don't exercise but someones else needs?
Would you be so quick to surrender your right to speak your mind freely?  Assuming you hadn't done so for 30 years, of course?  Would you also be willing to never speak your mind?  Or, that others speak their mind?
Are there any other amendments in the Bill of Rights that you haven't needed and would allow to go away or be legislated ineffective?

  I know someone who was robbed an gunpoint awhile back and this brings up an interesting point for discussion.  Before he could even react there was a gun pointed at him.  The thug has the drop on you what to do?  He gave him the $15 in his wallet and that was the end of it.  If my neighbor had a gun and pulled it out the situation instantly escalates.  One or both may be wounded or killed.  There is also the chance that the thug might shoot anyhow.  Unless you have your hand always ready to pull your gun at slightest threat, real or perceived, in many instances how effective is it?  Unless you have police or military training do you really have the training, the experience, and the judgment that comes with it to make split second decisions on the level of threat, the use of deadly force, and the danger to innocent bystanders? I have my doubts.

If your sole argument is that a gun is not a guarantee against crime, I'd have to agree.  Insurance, yes, guarantee, no.  Most people who have a gun also get training (87% according to a Police Foundation report). Certainly you can create a no win scenario which makes having a gun foolish. I'm guessing your information sources haven't told you much about defensive gun uses (DGUs) and their frequency.  There are three main studies of this:
a) The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS);  "On average in 1987-92 about 83,000 crime victims per year used a firearm to defend themselves or their property.  Three-fourths of the victims who used a firearm for defense did so during a violent crime; a fourth, during a theft, household burglary, or motor vehicle theft."
b)  "According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds." - Gary Kleck & Marc Gertz
c) 1994 National Survey of Private Ownership of Firearms (NSPOF); Reports  "1.5 million defensive users".

A gun kept in the house is more likely to be used against you or a family member by someone you know or a family member than it is to be used against a criminal entering your house.  We see it time and time again. 
This really is a fable manufactured by the anti-gun lobby groups.  The slogan is quite catchy and oft repeated, however the statistical source for the slogan had been debunked thoroughly.  Can you back up the statement with reliable data?  Was Kellerman the source?  Certainly the DGUs posted above would further seem to make the slogan invalid.

I am not arguing to ban guns but just pointing out that having them in the home does not make you safer.
But, you ARE using the same arguments the anti-gun lobby group is forwarding with the help of the liberal media.  And again, the DGU numbers would seem to indicate contrary the later part of your statement, don't you think?

The argument about protection against tyranny is a phony one.  What separates a democracy from a dictatorship is that a democracy is set up under the rule of law not of men.  No one is above the law. 
I disagree with the first proclamation.  With small arms, you can acquire larger ones.  The Romanian government overthrow began using small arms.  We have a Republic, not a democracy. And, they ARE above the law if they can destroy the evidence, or suppress testimony.  Remember Vince Foster? Whitewatergate? Travelgate? Filegate?  One of the principles involved is now our Secretary of State!

That is why the so many of us take offense at the last 8 years. 
I'm no primary advocate of the last 8 years.  But, the 8 years before that was a disgrace, too, and an attack on our rights as well.  Just a different aspect.  The current admin will do the same, I expect.  It's sad, really, what we stand to lose.

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2009, 10:07:43 am »
Yeah, people have been brainwashed so much with the democracy crap they just regurgitate it without thinking about it. By definition, democracy is "mob rule". I think what we have here (USA) is what I call a capitalist republic, trans-national corporations and other shady people behind the scenes run the agenda that makes this country run. Legislative, executive and judicial branches are mere puppets of the people that really run the show (Military Industrial Complex).
I think the forefathers intended the citizenry to possess and bear state of science weaponry (which includes automatic rifles), to ensure that the government fears and respects the citizens it serves- not the other way around. Unfortunately like TT has pointed out these rights are being whittled down day by day regardless of who is at the captain's seat.
Liberty requires eternal vigilance by it's citizenry, do you think most of the people here are keeping up their end of the bargain? I don't.
 
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2009, 03:15:35 pm »
Whoa TT!  Making a lot of assumptions there.  I don't think I was arguing for banning guns or giving up my rights or taking some one else's.  I just brought up some points for rational discussion.  But when I see Wing Nut phrases like "liberal media" and veiled references to Hillary Clinton I see there is little point.  What has Vince Foster, travelgate, and other Wing Nut conspiracy theories have to do with this.  Oh and by the way it's " liberal media elites" ;D  I see little point in responding any further.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 05:07:48 pm by srust58 »

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2009, 03:45:25 pm »
how 'bout corporate media? Just throw out the liberal/conservative phrases that used to apply, they don't exist anymore. Republican have strayed way far away from being conservative and democrats have strayed far away from being liberals. Pretty much all of them are corporate shills nowadays here. Nobody else gets this feeling or am I out in the woods on this one?
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billybobobrain

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2009, 04:04:59 pm »
how 'bout corporate media? Just throw out the liberal/conservative phrases that used to apply, they don't exist anymore. Republican have strayed way far away from being conservative and democrats have strayed far away from being liberals. Pretty much all of them are corporate shills nowadays here. Nobody else gets this feeling or am I out in the woods on this one?

You can join my camp! Bring your own tent though. ;D

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2009, 12:34:05 pm »
Sure thing, I'll bring smores too.
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billybobobrain

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2009, 03:56:47 pm »
At least we'll have plenty of guns and ammo!

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2009, 09:46:00 pm »
Now all we need is alcohol and tobacco...
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

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Offline Blasbo

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2009, 12:02:41 pm »
Gun control is being able to hit your target !  ;D
Around here it is a tight grouping.
Personally I think it has to do with individual rights and responsibility vs. government control. Does the individual have the right to decide if he wants a gun or do we want the government to tell us what we can and can't do? The other side to that right is the responsibility. I have a few shotguns, a couple of rifles and a couple of pistols. They are in the attic with the exception of one pistol which is kept unloaded. I have children in the house and they know not to touch the guns. I know that they might anyway so I keep the ammunition in a different spot. I think the government interferes too much in our lives with little or no good coming from most of it.
My $0.02. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2009, 08:54:20 pm »
I wants mah money back!!!  >:(
Slipping me a jacket mickey! Might as well be dem dum dum bullets!
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Offline Buber

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2009, 05:41:13 am »
Just a not from an outside observer - this thread has a little fault in its title. It should say is it about gun control world-wise, or are we talking only US of A. From the previous posts it would seem that it's only about US of A. Then I
 shut up, as I'm not living there, and I couldn't; care less what people do there with their money (hey, an afterthought here - am I not suffering financially now, because of some shady money transactions in US of A?? Hmmm, yes, I DO!!).
BUT if it's about worldwide, then here's my thought - just look around, I mean further than your own country (whichever it may be) you will see that by far and wide, guns aren't freely available, i.e. percentage of our planet population with free access to the guns if far smaller than the other part. And guess what? It doesn't hurt that majority that can't walk into supermarket and buy a gun.

For me there's no point in arguing pros and contras - the one who wants to have  a gun will get hold of it - don't you worry. And the guns will not defend or topple the political system. Actually, you never had an inside revolution, that is, toppling of your own government by your own people. My country seen it many times. And guess what? It's not the armed citizens that do revolutions, it's the patriotic and educated ones.

So, what I'm trying to say? That in my personal opinion, in the long term, majority is right. Look at the economy. At this moment the only economical system  that kind-of-works is the free market. And that's what the majority (on Earth, not just USA) say. There are many more "universal values" or ideas that work for everybody.
Yet free gun ownership is not one of those. So, maybe there's a reason?
Of course, if you keep the topic to the USA then it's different. But worldwide guns are controlled (or at least aren't freely available), and to me it means something.

happy shooting....
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Offline heffay

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2009, 07:14:41 am »
a good portion... if not most of us... are from the US.
its not that we specifically try to exclude the guys from across the pond... but the US is "our experience" and what we are concerned with.
throw your two cents in!  we don't care where you live... a qualifier might help to let us know you're not in the same situation as we are but your points are still valid.

anyway... i have no point... its hollow.   8)
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Offline Buber

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2009, 10:22:18 am »
By all means, heffay, I don't want to intrude upon. It's just that this topic is so exclusively USA, I just tought that having it named that way in the topic kind of sorts the problem out.

After all it seems that discussion,
a good portion... if not most of it .. goes in the US.

So, it seems that
its not that we specifically try to exclude the guys from across the pond... the this US is "our experience" and what we are concerned with.
as (in my opinion) rest of the world doesn't have this problem. We do have other things though...  ;D to bother us.

Privately (as you can figure) I don't see the need for violence in our lives, and so far, it seems that I've been lucky. And i'm not teenager anymore...  :P So, I can understand need for some "sport shooting", but not those other needs.

Anyway - as said above - happy shooting!
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Offline heffay

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2009, 12:46:08 pm »
that concerned w/ comment doesn't sound right, now that i read it back to myself.

i mean to say that it is what we concern ourselves with because it is the situation that we are in, and we try to educate ourselves on the topic... i don't mean to say that we are not concerned about what you have to say.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 02:23:02 pm by heffay »
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billybobobrain

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2009, 02:20:35 pm »
You know there is some validity to the fact that most Americans could care less about the rest of the world. I think if everyone in the world was good then there would be no need for guns. But the world is full of idiots and rat bastards who don't care about anyone but themselves, and people who are dilusional and don't know that killing is bad, or they don't care.  So in order to protect yourself from them you might want to keep a gun handy. Also say there is a situation where your country is taken over politicaly by communists, and tyrents. do we not have a right to rebell and take our country back. Try that one without killing someone.

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2009, 02:36:47 pm »
Also say there is a situation where your country is taken over politicaly by communists, and tyrents. do we not have a right to rebell and take our country back. Try that one without killing someone.
Hmmm, billy, honestly, you just shoot yourself in the leg (pardon the pun  ::))! As it happens, just about 20 years ago, about half of Europe did just that - changed the countries taken over by communists and "tyrents" without kiling (nearly) anyone. Just in Romania some people died.

So, sorry, but that was one really bad example...  ;D

And  - another thought - so you say that you need to protect yourself from bad people and bad things? So what the others do? The ones that can't buy the gun? They find their ways and live somehow WITHOUT the guns... Soooo, maybe, after all, it IS possible? Me say yes....

And honestly, I have no problem with people having guns, just please admit it that the major reason is for having them is not protection or freedom or whatever. Just admit that you like it, honesty, just like to shoot, like to have them, etc. And that's all OK. Some people think that ownership of a bike which is over 30 yrs old is a bit weird, but if it gives you happiness and satisfaction, then why not?

That is what methinks... And I really respect your hobby. Just be honest about it..  :D
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Offline manjisann

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2009, 12:21:45 pm »
Quote
And honestly, I have no problem with people having guns, just please admit it that the major reason is for having them is not protection or freedom or whatever. Just admit that you like it, honesty, just like to shoot, like to have them, etc. And that's all OK. Some people think that ownership of a bike which is over 30 yrs old is a bit weird, but if it gives you happiness and satisfaction, then why not?

That is what methinks... And I really respect your hobby. Just be honest about it.. 

Would you believe that one of the major reasons someone would own a gun is for protection? I will admit to enjoying shooting just for the sake of shooting (targets, I should stipulate  ;D ) But I also own guns to protect myself, my family and my friends. I hope to never have to point a gun at another human being as I believe that most situations can be resolved without it, but there are some people who intend others serious harm.

As I get older and the area I live in significantly more developed  :'( it is harder and harder to find somewhere to shoot safely that isn't a range.  I now have to drive a minimum of an hour, whereas before it was half that. So my purchases of late have been more for the protection side that the enjoyment side of things. I have read many books on gun safety, defense situations, and have taken my CC class and have my permit. I don't carry as often as I'd like as my employer doesn't allow it. Again, I doubt I'd ever need it, but I'd me very very unhappy the one time I do and I don't have it.

So to anyone who doesn't feel it is necissary to own a gun, I respect your personal choice and hope you never need one. But I also ask that you respect my choice to protect myself and my family.

TT, awesome to see your well thought out explanations are just for motorcycles  ;D and the fact that I agree with you is just a bonus!

Brandon
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2009, 02:13:53 pm »
Human intellect and resourcefulness is the only thing that makes humans superior to the rest of the animal kingdom.  I wouldn't want to ditty-bop across Alaska without a rifle....
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