Poll

How far should gun control go?

I like were it is now.
Gun control is for wimps and communists.
Only cops and criminals should own a gun.
Guns are safe as long as you know how to use them.
No one should have one.
Obama can save us all.

Author Topic: Gun control (The official gun thread!)  (Read 91909 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #350 on: February 21, 2014, 12:04:42 PM »
Thanks Lloyd, I did my best and read about two thirds of your post before I lost interest mate, no offence, but it was really long and didn't actually cover any new ground.
Terry, how would you know if it covered new ground, if you didn't read it all?
I read all of your post, Terry.   Isn't part of a winning strategy to know your opposition?   ;D

You quoted me to suggest that I'd implied some "anti-gun" themes, but I note that you didn't quote me when I said that I'm also a gun owner so obviously not anti gun, just anti "any nut and his dog can own one".
Point one: Simply owning a gun, does not preclude you from being anti-gun.  To wit, our very own Diane Fienstien, who owns a gun and has in fact 1 of the 2 total carry permits issued in San Francisco, who said.
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . ‘Mr. and Mrs. America, turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it.”

And really, that's the problem, weeding out the people who should never be allowed to own a gun from those who can, before they use their guns for evil. Cheers, Terry. ;D
Point two:
That's fundamentally a problem of being human and living in an inherently unfair society.  When and by what method do you propose to brand those for life as being unworthy?  At birth?  Who decides?  An appointee, or elected official who is unquestionably correct on all matters 100% of the time?

We already have laws making it illegal for under 18 year olds to, purchase a gun, or possess it unsupervised.
We already have laws making the mentally unfit illegal to own guns.
We already have laws that make it illegal for felons to own a gun.
What else do you want?  A law that makes it illegal to shoot someones else criminally?  I think we have that, too.
Short of a ban on all tools that can be used in a lethal fashion, how do you select the individuals that are destined to snap under societal pressures?

How about a law that makes it illegal to impose societal pressures which drive a person to despair, vengence, or homicidal rage?  Would that serve your desires?

I thought is was commonly known that any human can be spiritually and mentally "broken" in the right environment and circumstances.
Ever heard of "Stockholm Syndrome"?  How about "Paris syndrome"?  We have both military and government branches whose primary job is to mentally steer people toward their preferred ideology.  You believe all of this research is benign to an individual?

The human mind sometimes is and sometimes isn't predictable, but most can be guided with select stimulus.  Example: Contagious shooting
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-strange-examples-of-cognitive-phenomenon.php

The fact is, that ALL of us are either now mentally unstable (as defined by someone else), or can be made unstable by external influences, (or made to appear unstable to someone else by selecting an arranged data set).

I experienced military Boot camp (Navy).  This is the military practice of at least partially brain washing recruits under the guise of "training", to blindly "follow orders" of an authoritative figure.  Some branches of the US military are more thorough in this practice than others.  "Following orders" is a common war crimes defense even though the person "knew" at the time that the execution of such orders was criminal.

This "following orders" practice is the biggest fear I have from both the paid mercenary military and police establishments, where the ideology becomes in essence, "my gang" is better than all the populace at large, and whose only responsibility is to their superiors, and not to the common individual they are paid to protect.

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #351 on: February 21, 2014, 01:33:18 PM »
Hey Terry, I got yer gun right here pal.  ;)

p.s., after 3 wives, Jerry's "Weapon Handling" skills are in serious doubt, but I imagine that in the year or so since his last wife left, he's now got a much firmer grip............... on his "weapon". ;D
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #352 on: February 21, 2014, 03:15:19 PM »
Hey Terry, I got yer gun right here pal.  ;)

p.s., after 3 wives, Jerry's "Weapon Handling" skills are in serious doubt, but I imagine that in the year or so since his last wife left, he's now got a much firmer grip............... on his "weapon". ;D

Ha ha, well don't post a pic of it, for God's sake! ;D
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #353 on: February 21, 2014, 03:55:22 PM »
Thanks Lloyd, I did my best and read about two thirds of your post before I lost interest mate, no offence, but it was really long and didn't actually cover any new ground.
Terry, how would you know if it covered new ground, if you didn't read it all?
I read all of your post, Terry.   Isn't part of a winning strategy to know your opposition?   ;D

You quoted me to suggest that I'd implied some "anti-gun" themes, but I note that you didn't quote me when I said that I'm also a gun owner so obviously not anti gun, just anti "any nut and his dog can own one".
Point one: Simply owning a gun, does not preclude you from being anti-gun.  To wit, our very own Diane Fienstien, who owns a gun and has in fact 1 of the 2 total carry permits issued in San Francisco, who said.
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . ‘Mr. and Mrs. America, turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it.”

And really, that's the problem, weeding out the people who should never be allowed to own a gun from those who can, before they use their guns for evil. Cheers, Terry. ;D
Point two:
That's fundamentally a problem of being human and living in an inherently unfair society.  When and by what method do you propose to brand those for life as being unworthy?  At birth?  Who decides?  An appointee, or elected official who is unquestionably correct on all matters 100% of the time?

We already have laws making it illegal for under 18 year olds to, purchase a gun, or possess it unsupervised.
We already have laws making the mentally unfit illegal to own guns.
We already have laws that make it illegal for felons to own a gun.
What else do you want?  A law that makes it illegal to shoot someones else criminally?  I think we have that, too.
Short of a ban on all tools that can be used in a lethal fashion, how do you select the individuals that are destined to snap under societal pressures?

How about a law that makes it illegal to impose societal pressures which drive a person to despair, vengence, or homicidal rage?  Would that serve your desires?

I thought is was commonly known that any human can be spiritually and mentally "broken" in the right environment and circumstances.
Ever heard of "Stockholm Syndrome"?  How about "Paris syndrome"?  We have both military and government branches whose primary job is to mentally steer people toward their preferred ideology.  You believe all of this research is benign to an individual?

The human mind sometimes is and sometimes isn't predictable, but most can be guided with select stimulus.  Example: Contagious shooting
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-strange-examples-of-cognitive-phenomenon.php

The fact is, that ALL of us are either now mentally unstable (as defined by someone else), or can be made unstable by external influences, (or made to appear unstable to someone else by selecting an arranged data set).

I experienced military Boot camp (Navy).  This is the military practice of at least partially brain washing recruits under the guise of "training", to blindly "follow orders" of an authoritative figure.  Some branches of the US military are more thorough in this practice than others.  "Following orders" is a common war crimes defense even though the person "knew" at the time that the execution of such orders was criminal.

This "following orders" practice is the biggest fear I have from both the paid mercenary military and police establishments, where the ideology becomes in essence, "my gang" is better than all the populace at large, and whose only responsibility is to their superiors, and not to the common individual they are paid to protect.



Well to be fair Lloyd, I read all the way down to the (oft repeated theme in your posts on the subject) story about the little old man who turned the situation around when he shot his much younger attacker, but like most of your most recent post, (which out of respect to you I read all the way through) you were using an extreme situation to better your argument.

We had a brutal double murder here in Melbourne earlier this week, the elderly couple who were murdered in their own home owned lots of guns, but didn't manage to use them in their defence obviously, so just owning a gun won't guarantee that you'll have the opportunity to use them to save yourself, particularly if you're asleep or caught unawares when your attacker strikes. The older you get, the more and deeper you sleep, so lots more opportunities for bad guys to get you, and not much that you can do about it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/car-computer-files-seized-as-devoted-husband-and-wife-brutally-slain-inside-their-murrumbeena-home-in-melbournes-southeast/story-fni0fee2-1226831764517

I'm trying to understand how I could be anti-gun if I'm a gun owner? Like Mark, I've owned guns since I was a kid, and even though I'm not a regular shooter any more, I still enjoy occasionally taking them to the range (especially one of my old black powder guns that has been in my family for well over 100 years) to punch holes in paper targets, I just don't live in a culture where I think I need a gun just to survive.

I think you were implying that I'm one of these people who think that I should be allowed to own a gun but nobody else should, but that's not true either, I couldn't care less how many responsible gun owners there are out there, good luck to them, if they enjoy their hobby responsibly, more power to them.

It's the nuts who disrespect their armed forces and don't trust their police, and use the argument that everyone is insane so everyone should arm themselves against each other, that should never be allowed to own a gun. How should your government decide? Just invite them to go thru the posts on this topic, I reckon that'll give them a pretty clear indication.............. ;D   
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #354 on: February 21, 2014, 08:22:15 PM »
I'm unable to write this in a form that doesn't sound like an attack.   But, I'll say up front that is not my root intention.  I'm just not capable of writing in a whimsical or jovial style, I guess.  (And certainly not within your preferred word limits.   ;D )
Try to understand I don't suspect you of villainy.  But, I can't resist arguing with those that favor inequality (or denial) toward gun ownership.

I'm trying to understand how I could be anti-gun if I'm a gun owner?

Well, I'm trying to decide which of these apply.  Maybe you can help?

ELITISTS
Many of those in favor of oppressive firearms legislation are best classed as elitists. Elitists frequently identify with a peer group based on wealth, power, rank, social status, occupation, education, ethnic group, etc. and perceive themselves and their peers as inherently superior to and more responsible than the "common people", thus more deserving of certain rights. Since elitists practically consider those outside their class or caste as members of another species, that most anti-elitist list of laws, the Bill of Rights is viewed by them as anathema. Naturally, the Second Amendment is their first target as it serves as the supporting structure for the other nine amendments.

AUTHORITARIANS
Another type of individual who favors the restriction of private gun ownership is the authoritarian. Authoritarian personalities are characterized by their belief in unquestioning obedience to an authority figure or group and a disdain for individual freedom of action, expression, and judgement. Those with authoritarian personalities function well in symbiosis with elitists occupying positions of power. Because authoritarians repress their desires for autonomy and they harbor a deep resentment toward free and independent thinkers. Of course authoritarians do not want firearms in the hands of the general population as this constitutes a major obstacle to fulfilling their pathological and obsessive desire to control people.

Like Mark, I've owned guns since I was a kid, and even though I'm not a regular shooter any more, I still enjoy occasionally taking them to the range (especially one of my old black powder guns that has been in my family for well over 100 years) to punch holes in paper targets, I just don't live in a culture where I think I need a gun just to survive.
I'm genuinely happy for you.  We could probably have fun going out to the range.  But, I wonder when your population increases to the equivalent density as the US, whether it will remain non-violent in certain areas?  Even the US has many (most) places where violence is quite rare.  But, evil, desperate, or insane people know no boundaries, and can visit at any time (more prevalent during natural disaster scenarios).  You don't think it wise to be properly prepared for the possibility?

I was not brought up with guns or training as a child. It was ingrained at an early age that guns were evil and I was NEVER allowed to become in any way familiar with them.  Archery was also prohibited.  As such, I adopted the ideology that guns were evil and that all of them should be removed from the face of the earth so that no one could be hurt by them.  In 1968, the Navy allowed me to fire ten rounds at a practice target, under the guise of "training".  But, it wasn't until my late twenties, while researching wilderness survival techniques, that I found guns as a useful and beneficial tool.  And, while researching this quite useful tool (an AR7, btw), I also learned that previously ingrained notions and ideology about "evil" guns were proven invalid.  To this day, I still have no desire to harm another, by fists or by weapon, against another individual unless that is my only hope of survival.  I also know, that to this day, there is no valid reason to deny my access to any weapon out of fear of harming others. 

I think you were implying that I'm one of these people who think that I should be allowed to own a gun but nobody else should, but that's not true either, I couldn't care less how many responsible gun owners there are out there, good luck to them, if they enjoy their hobby responsibly, more power to them.
Then why does it appear you are supporting more restrictive gun laws limiting access beyond what now exists?  How should it be decided who can have them and who cannot, beyond the current legislation you seem to find inadequate?

It's the nuts who disrespect their armed forces and don't trust their police, and use the argument that everyone is insane so everyone should arm themselves against each other, that should never be allowed to own a gun. 
[/quote]

Didn't I mention that some will assign derangement onto others whether there is basis, or not?  Why yes, I did.
Quote
The fact is, that ALL of us are either now mentally unstable (as defined by someone else), or can be made unstable by external influences, (or made to appear unstable to someone else by selecting an arranged data set).

On queue, suddenly you are the norm for the definition of sane, and anyone that disagrees with your sensibilities is a nut.  Totally ignoring the very real fact that there are those that become insane due to an unfair society or conditions that are reasoned as insurmountable.
Did you just prove my point?

However, I will admit I likely mis-worded the statement which should have included the possibility that many of us are sane within the societal norms as we now understand it.

Anyone can be driven insane, particularly when cornered into an untenable situation, yet some still function unnoticed in society (even elected).  Last I checked, all the military and police personnel in control are human, and therefore subject to all human conditions and frailties, an extra stripe on their arm or insignia on their shoulder notwithstanding.
For the record, I do respect the capabilities of the armed forces, as well as the police, as well as the many good things they do.  I just have reservations about a non-conscripted army doing what is best for the country's population while performing actions within that same country, when "under orders".   I have limited trust in the police, too, just not absolute, and certainly not when those at the top of the command hierarchy decide to "take control" of individuals unimportant to protect.  The police in this country have the self preservation attitude that you are guilty until proven innocent.  Not a cop?  Then you are not one of us and therefore a criminal until a court says otherwise.  They will use anything they can against you, as the opportunity arises, to prove they are not wrong.  Best to appear invisible, even though I'm more likely to help them than hurt them.

How should your government decide?
Certainly NOT by claiming everyone is guilty until proven innocent.  (Prove you are sane by our standards, or become restricted.)
This country was formed under the belief that individual rights are ABOVE the rights of government UNTIL the rights of other individuals are infringed.
If you break laws and thereby prove yourself a danger to others, then you are restricted (if caught, of course) by government.

You still haven't said how you wish to apply your "fair ownership practices" to the public at large.  Why is that, Terry?

I agree with you that simply owning a gun does not guarantee a favorable outcome with an evil encounter.  And certainly, the opposite outcome is possible.  But, I favor the fighting chance, rather than just submitting as a victim.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria

"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it."
William Burroughs
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #355 on: February 21, 2014, 09:57:21 PM »
I'm finding the diatribe interesting while being civilized. I applaud you.

The most interesting statement I've seen lately is:

GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT - very unfortunate but VERY true in our country today. You better have beaucoup bucks to get out of trouble you never got into and if you try the establishment will ruin you to the poor house just because you wish to clear your smeared name.

Now kiss and make up and agree to disagree  :)
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #356 on: February 22, 2014, 03:12:27 AM »
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #357 on: March 27, 2014, 11:12:57 PM »
I realize this is kind of an older thread but this is a debate that I get pretty worked up about so I thought I would put in my two cents. This from the point of view of a city police officer where the city I work in has a few dozen gangs and an abundance of illegal weapons, some of which I have come face to face with.

First of all, I don't think that every person should have a gun because a untrained/unprepared person carrying a gun could  turn into a weapon for a would be attacker rather than used to defend that unprepared person. I also believe that the liberal lawmakers that attack gun rights do so out of a lack of understanding. Although they may have good intentions for the most part, I think that they do not have exposure to or knowledge of life as a law abiding gun owner vs. a law breaking gun possessor. The general public was intended to possess guns to protect themselves from other people and also from a tyrannical government. Hunting has nothing to do with our rights to gun ownership.

As far as the laws towards gun ownership, some of the major issues I see here in the states is that all of our states are not on the same page. As an example, when I purchase a pistol here in New York, I have to pass a background check and then that pistol is placed on my pistol permit which I also have to pass a background check and a judges approval to obtain. The prior mentioned pistol, being listed on my permit, essentially is being tracked and if I was to sell that pistol or have it stolen it must be reported. In many other states, You do not have to pass a background check and also that pistol is never tracked after it is sold. I have a lot of handguns that I have removed from individuals in the city I work that are less than 18yoa and obviously not legal owners and did not obtain the pistol in a legal means. After running a check of that pistols serial number, it does not come back stolen and has no record attached to it. How can that be? That pistol came from another state where it is not mandatory to track the pistol on a permit or report it stolen and it is then trafficked across state lines and ends up on my local streets.

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of the new Safe Act that was enacted by our wonderful Andrew Cuomo after the SandyHook shooting but there are several new additions to our already stringent gun laws. In my years of service as a police officer, I have never come across a person that legally owned guns and used them illegally. I have heard of other officers arresting a person for firing a shotgun within city limits which they had originally purchased legally but, I have never personally arrested anybody in this or a similar situation. The weapons I come across are either pistols not held by a permit holder, sawed off shotguns or illegal assault rifles. The reason why I do not arrest law abiding gun owners(people who purchased the gun legally in the first place) is just that, they rarely ever break the law. Nationally, the rate that they break the law compared to people that illegally possess weapons is extremely lopsided but one reason you do not hear these types of statistics is because the liberal media will not share this information.(a whole other discussion) People that break laws to begin with do not care if they break more of them in the future and people that do not break laws do not typically want to start breaking laws. Rates of recidivism are insane and Judges should be held more accountable for releasing these criminals(also, worthy of a separate discussion:)

There is a lot of truth to the statement that guns don't kill people, stupid people with guns kill people. President Obama's windy city has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country yet they have one of the highest rates of gun crime. Law makers target assault rifles because of these mass shootings yet assault rifles account for deaths in single digits percentage wise nationwide, compared to all firearms. It is a kneejerk reaction.
 
I think that with more uniform gun laws and better tracking of pistols nationwide, you would see a significant drop in these crimes. The fact is pistols account for a huge number of gun related deaths. A person intent on committing murder will find a way to do so, because they have a imbalance somewhere and indifference for human life. I do not think that people should be prevented from obtaining guns unless they do not fit certain criteria(mental health or criminal background related). But I also think that there should be more access to and more mandatory training based on the type of firearm. I guess that I am a little towards the middle as far as regulation. I think there should be some but not to the extremes of states like New York but also not to the extremes of a state that allows anybody to go into a shop purchase a gun and ship it elsewhere with no information following that weapon or a background check.

Sorry for the long rant but I often find that if the people creating these laws rode around with me for a few nights they would rethink the way they design these laws because frankly they do not apply and will do little to save lives. People like Cuomo are only interested in "groundbreaking laws" for self promotion and future runs at the presidency. Not upholding and preserving the constitution as it was intended. Its really an amazing document that still applies after so long, it really bothers me to see judges misrepresenting and misinterpreting the constitution for their own agendas/ideology. Government is to protect our rights foreign and domestic, not take our money and give it to others that refuse to better themselves and then restrict our rights with BS self serving laws while Lining their pockets with money from special interest groups.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #358 on: March 28, 2014, 03:46:49 AM »
Thank you, JW, for taking the time and typing it out. That's good reading.

Big part of the fight for gun control is country versus city, city guy saying - my kids are getting killed on streets, ban guns while the country guy says I need a gun just like I need a chainsaw. 

Here is a mass murderer from Czechoslovakia.  Back in that time, gun control was very, very tight, well more like it was one big prison where only the guards had guns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Hepnarov%C3%A1
Prokop
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Offline motocyconomad

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #359 on: March 28, 2014, 06:13:52 AM »
we should be able to own the same weapons the military have. ATFE should be a store not an agency. look at that senator they just caught running guns(what a #$%*ing joke). making things contra ban, just makes it more expensive not out of reach. after you do your time in jail your rights should all be fully restored. Civilian militias where the first people to fight and die for the rights we have today. Open and concelled carry should be common place and not require any "permit" because just the fact that gov. is requiring a permit is an infringement. slowly stepping on your rights does not make it any more OK than snapping them away and both lead to the same end results.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #360 on: March 28, 2014, 10:17:19 AM »
Gun registration (or gun control as a political agenda) is, in truth, a misnomer.  It is actually people registration, and "people control" that is the object of the current oligarchy/oligarchies.  Much easier to treat all persons as criminals and guilty, before the demonstration of the fact.

The propaganda machine has been adept at stigmatizing anyone associated with guns as a criminal (more assumption of guilt).  Unless of course, sanctioned by some government official or representative, many of whom are repugnant to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights they have sworn to uphold.  They should justly be tried as traitors, by the strict adherence to the fundamental laws of the land.



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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #361 on: March 28, 2014, 12:50:56 PM »
Calj, I'm not interested in limiting what people buy. Like I said I'm kind of at a middle ground mindset where I think there should be regulation to track some of these firearms after a background check but then it stops there. I know that at this time the right wing NRA types argue that if we register firearms then the next step would be the same firearms being confiscated by the government but, my point was simply hypothetical in that it should stop there at background checks and registration. I know as well as the next guy that the left wing will continue to fight for our guns and the government will most likely and unfortunately not stop at only registering firearms. Like I said it was a hypothetical suggestion because I believe that regulation like that could help our problems on the streets because the majority of guns(90 plus %) we take off the street are not purchased here in New York and are not traceable. So many people in our government and even in this thread making their arguments state why they think there should guns/no guns but do not provide any practical way to fix what the problem actually is, which is what I was attempting to do.

To answer your question, You do need a permit in order to own a pistol in NY. There are two types of permits here, a sportsman for transporting a pistol unloaded and boxed up to a range and shoot then there is a carry concealed which a permit holder can carry in most places. There are a few exceptions here like not being able to carry in the NYC for example and the laws are a little different inside your own home. My wife although she does not have a permit, could use my pistols for self defense inside our home without prosecution because they are legally owned. This is a brief explanation, there is way more to it obviously because the laws were created by our lawmakers and could never be that simple.

I also agree that people attempting to limit purchases and ownership of AR15's are out of their minds. They pigeon hole these weapons because of their tactical/military appearance and not because they have actual knowledge of said weapon and its use during crimes.

 I wanted to provide a different point of view. I know that by no means am I a expert or all knowing but I do have tangible experience and training that I think provides a better point of view than the people in our state and federal governments making laws that limit our rights.

I appreciate your comments and glad we can all have a healthy debate.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #362 on: March 28, 2014, 01:31:32 PM »
To answer your question, You do need a permit in order to own a pistol in NY. There are two types of permits here, a sportsman for transporting a pistol unloaded and boxed up to a range and shoot then there is a carry concealed which a permit holder can carry in most places. There are a few exceptions here like not being able to carry in the NYC for example and the laws are a little different inside your own home. My wife although she does not have a permit, could use my pistols for self defense inside our home without prosecution because they are legally owned. This is a brief explanation, there is way more to it obviously because the laws were created by our lawmakers and could never be that simple.

I also agree that people attempting to limit purchases and ownership of AR15's are out of their minds. They pigeon hole these weapons because of their tactical/military appearance and not because they have actual knowledge of said weapon and its use during crimes.

 I wanted to provide a different point of view. I know that by no means am I a expert or all knowing but I do have tangible experience and training that I think provides a better point of view than the people in our state and federal governments making laws that limit our rights.

I appreciate your comments and glad we can all have a healthy debate.

I understand what you are trying to say, and I feel you Heart is in the right place. You and I both live in NY. We do live in two different New Yorks.  Upstate getting a Pistol Permit is not very difficult. Many Counties offer basically a Premises and Carry Concealed, the process may take 3-4 Months.

Down here just outside the City it will take about a year for the "Sportsmans" permit which we call "Target and Hunting". (The Legality of that restricted Permit is in doubt, so they never enforce it.) 

They make it as difficult as possible to get any permit, and just meeting the qualifications does not mean you will get one. NYC is another horror show.

The Downstate NY process is so onerous, that many otherwise Law Abiding citizens actully own unregistered Pistols, many have Summer Homes in other States and they bring one home.

NY is not a model for a rational Pistol Law, it is the poster Child for why people in other States resist anything short of the "Shall Issue" and fear the NY Model.

One thing unique is NY is my Permit is only valid for the Pistols printed on the back of the License. Possession of any other Pistol makes me a Felon. So, I am not Licensed to carry a Pistol, I am Licenced to carry only those Pistols with no exceprtions. In one sense, the Pistol is Licensed and I am not.
 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #363 on: March 28, 2014, 02:52:13 PM »
So, I am not Licensed to carry a Pistol, I am Licenced to carry only those Pistols with no exceprtions. In one sense, the Pistol is Licensed and I am not.
 

I submit it is you, in fact, that are being registered, tracked, and monitored.  The gun serial number and card is just a means to do so, and a mechanism by which to prosecute you and enable further stripping of your "right", if you don't jump through their arbitrary hoops.

Your government has issued you a license to exercise your "inalienable right".  And, has therefore ignored and violated your "inalienable right" as amended to the US Constitution.  Criminals governing citizens.  And you pay taxes on command to support this.  ...And you are all comfortable or complacent with this situation...

How long until the rest of the "rights" are similarly abridged under the banner of "public safety"?



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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #364 on: March 28, 2014, 02:54:13 PM »
JW, NO ONE needs automatic weapons mate, they are looked on badly due to the fact that when they are used to kill, they kill in large numbers that hand guns are not capable of, I wouldn't call that a "knee jerk reaction" at all....  Have you seen the new electromagnetic pulse weapons coming onto the marker at all..? Capable of firing 16,000 rounds a second and will be able to fire anything that is currently fired like RPG's, normal grenades, any sized shell, any missile...Can't wait for the public to get their hands on those.... :o

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZFjGbOyd2ek?rel=0

Lloyd, give us a break on the conspiracy theories ... :o  You are easily tracked with out having to sign a thing, technology has passed the point where they need you to sign anything to keep track of you.......
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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #365 on: March 28, 2014, 04:55:07 PM »
Retro, I understand what you are saying but it does not apply. Don't take this as an insult but do you live or have you lived in the states because I feel like you are a little misinformed. It is extremely hard here in the states to have full automatic weapons like the military carries. The mass shootings that happen here do not happen with automatic weapons and this is what we are trying to say. Our government officials treat semi automatic weapons as if they are full auto military style machine guns. The fact is the weapons they are trying to control look the part but cannot function the same as military "automatic" weapons and as previously stated account for a miniscule amount of deaths. That is our problem with the liberal argument here in the states. Being a police officer, I would quit my job if automatic weapons were that available around here because it would not be worth what I get paid. I'm not sure how your government works but our politicians around here don't look out for the general public, they have their own interests and wallets in mind.

Cool video, I watch that show a lot. Fact is I was never talking about automatic weapons.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #366 on: March 28, 2014, 05:11:42 PM »
Retro, I understand what you are saying but it does not apply. Don't take this as an insult but do you live or have you lived in the states because I feel like you are a little misinformed. It is extremely hard here in the states to have full automatic weapons like the military carries. The mass shootings that happen here do not happen with automatic weapons and this is what we are trying to say. Our government officials treat semi automatic weapons as if they are full auto military style machine guns. The fact is the weapons they are trying to control look the part but cannot function the same as military "automatic" weapons and as previously stated account for a miniscule amount of deaths. That is our problem with the liberal argument here in the states. Being a police officer, I would quit my job if automatic weapons were that available around here because it would not be worth what I get paid. I'm not sure how your government works but our politicians around here don't look out for the general public, they have their own interests and wallets in mind.

Cool video, I watch that show a lot. Fact is I was never talking about automatic weapons.

I meant to say semi auto weapons but to the contrary, there are still piles of full auto weapons in the States, to deny that is a bit silly {no offense intended} and as you would know, its pretty easy to change a lot of semi auto weapons to full auto, one of our lesser members here has put you tube videos online demonstrating it.
I don't understand why the public even needs semi auto weapons, if these weapons are going to be used for hunting by people with the necessary skills to use them whats wrong with a high quality rifle like a Sako 243 or Ruger 270, or even my favorite all round rifle the Sako 222, all of which are single shot rifles with a magazine, in the right hands they are a useful tool and there is no need even for semi's. I enjoy shooting, my 2 brothers in law were Australasian trap and skeet champions and have been hunting since their childhood, I haven't done as much shooting as them but have experience in pig shooting, roo's and other feral problems like rabbit, feral cats  and foxes.. so this is no anti gun rant. I understand that you need your semi hand guns for law enforcement and obviously the military needs them as well, but the general population...? You would be surprised what i know about the US my friend, we get everything USA shoved down our throats here in Aus, and being a small country with a short history, we are well schooled in international affairs generally, not just the US...
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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #367 on: March 28, 2014, 05:33:11 PM »
Bobby, our permit process takes about a year from start to finish. I agree that our system in NY is full of fluff and BS but background checks and permits are responsible and I believe should be followed. If you have a permit in NYS then you are licensed, and if said pistol was purchased legally then the listing of a pistol on your permit is done by simply filling out a sheet of paper and submitting it to your local pistol permit office. I do know that possession of a pistol in NYC falls under different regulation but if you don't live in the city then you will fall under the same rules as the rest of the state.

 The problem with this argument is that people often impose extreme ideas on the topic making it impossible to have a rational argument. For example, there was another previous comment about government confiscating everybody's weapons. This is a extreme point of view and does not currently happen. I understand it is the next logical step in the mind of the NRA but since it is not happening, we cannot argue Hypothetical vs. fact. One fact is that WAY more people die because of pistols compared to "assault" rifles. Another fact is that weapons have changed greatly since the constitution was written. The creators of the constitution were very talented when it came to writing the constitution in a manner that keeps it relevant after so long but they could not have even imagined what firearms would look like today. Therefor to be responsible, as a public we have to also evolve. Maybe this is through "some" legislation but I do agree that our government is too large and not in touch with reality on this and many other subjects.


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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #368 on: March 28, 2014, 05:42:26 PM »
I meant to say semi auto weapons but to the contrary, there are still piles of full auto weapons in the States, to deny that is a bit silly {no offense intended} and as you would know, its pretty easy to change a lot of semi auto weapons to full auto, one of our lesser members here has put you tube videos online demonstrating it.
I don't understand why the public even needs semi auto weapons, if these weapons are going to be used for hunting by people with the necessary skills to use them whats wrong with a high quality rifle like a Sako 243 or Ruger 270, or even my favorite all round rifle the Sako 222, all of which are single shot rifles with a magazine, in the right hands they are a useful tool and there is no need even for semi's. I enjoy shooting, my 2 brothers in law were Australasian trap and skeet champions and have been hunting since their childhood, I haven't done as much shooting as them but have experience in pig shooting, roo's and other feral problems like rabbit, feral cats  and foxes.. so this is no anti gun rant. I understand that you need your semi hand guns for law enforcement and obviously the military needs them as well, but the general population...? You would be surprised what i know about the US my friend, we get everything USA shoved down our throats here in Aus, and being a small country with a short history, we are well schooled in international affairs generally, not just the US...
[/quote]

I was just going off the fact you said automatic and then posted a video showing a full auto machine gun:) In all my years in the states and even in law enforcement I have never seen a full auto weapon. I agree somebody could manufacture their own parts to make a semi auto rifle shoot full auto but the people with these skills are few and far between. On top of that in order to obtain these parts legally it is very difficult and requires special licensing. As a Police Officer I would have to have special training and licensing, of which, there is a very small number of people in the states with this type of certification and I do not personally know any. I cannot just go onto the interweb and purchase the required parts to make my AR full auto so I don't think its as easy as you think.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #369 on: March 28, 2014, 05:51:57 PM »
My first and last comment on this thread,what part of "shall not be infringed"do you folks not understand?look up "infringe"in the dictionary and maybe you will understand.the way the amendment is currently written,i should be able to own any weapon i want.if you dont like it,change the constitution.rant over


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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #370 on: March 28, 2014, 06:54:44 PM »
Apparently your ok with the mentally ill, felons and untrained people carrying fully automatic weapons. People like this are the reason why the left thinks gun owners are crazy. You and Mr. Jones have fun sounding like crack pots with your conspiracy theories and uncompromising ignorance. At some point, you may realize that your helping them make their argument. Your far right ideas are irresponsible and outdated just like how the left thinks weapons are for hunting. I wonder how you would feel if a bi-polar schizo put a gun in your face because they thought you were the devil. I have also seen people high on pcp/embalming fluid point guns at police officers while having no recollection of what they did hours later. Probably should not put any regulations on people like that either huh? Anytime youre in Syracuse and would like to go on a ride a long to see how the majority of the world functions let me know.  Once again facts speak loudest...When the constitution was written was there the same understanding of mental health issues? Were there as many drugs and were they as potent as they are now? Were weapons capable of the same carnage? No...Times change and so should your thinking. I'm off this merry go round boys, never ending battle with far right and left with no compromise.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #371 on: March 28, 2014, 07:04:10 PM »
The problem with this argument is that people often impose extreme ideas on the topic making it impossible to have a rational argument. For example, there was another previous comment about government confiscating everybody's weapons. This is a extreme point of view and does not currently happen.

Unfortunately, this is not true.  (Unless you mean it is not an ongoing process.)
Historically, Wounded Knee for one example.

Recall the events subsequent to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.
Hurricane Katrina Door to Door Firearms Confiscation
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"How about Chicago, put in registration of long guns, used that same registration to confiscate semiauto long guns in the early 1990s

What about California, couldn't make up it's mind if the SKS was covered or not (1989), decided AFTER the registration period was closed that they needed to be registered, declared a second 'grace period' for registration...then about 5 years ago they decided that those SKSs registered during the grace period were illegal because the grace period was illegal, and in certain cities and counties sent law enforcement to the listed addresses demanding surrender of the firearm. Because there is the legal option of removing the gun from the state of CA, and these officers had no warrants, smart gun owners turned them away with the claim 'I gave it to a relative in Oregon (or whatever)' but MANY were seized with no compensation. (Cities and counties later on offered compensation for anyone who had a receipt, but the police weren't giving out receipts, only a few people who demanded them had them and they were basically notes scribbled on whatever spare paper the officer had)

Side Note, the SKS was the MOST common weapon in the hands of Korean Shop Owners who used them to defend themselves and businesses when the LA riots happened. "

My added note, is that the SKS wasn't the only example, other so-called assault rifles registered during the AG's "grace period" were also confiscated.

Further, the ATF will confiscate entire gun collections if even one is declared "illegal" by some technicality.

Then again, some might argue that the WACO debacle, began as a gun confiscation operation.  But, there isn't anyone left (adults or children) to file a grievance with the government.

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #372 on: March 28, 2014, 07:36:36 PM »
I couldn't help myself...clearly you have no idea what was taking place in New Orleans and apparently do not understand the mindset of people during a riot(mob mentality). You would want these people to have access to weapons? In some very rare situations people probably should not have weapons for the greater good of a community.

Then you bring up WACO. Koresh thought he was a messiah and had a shootout with a rival messiah years earlier, on top of having claims of child sexual abuse. Then during the ATF raid he/his followers killed several ATF agents. This is a case of a mentally ill person that should not have access to weapons. Your thoughts of conspiracy have you clouded and this is why you sound crazy. Timothy McVeigh(Oklahoma city bomber) cited David Koresh as the reason why he committed his terrorist act. I suggest you find better reasons other than a few random confiscations over two decades that were isolated incidents and not a nationwide epidemic. Once again, just unfounded conspiracy theories with awful examples to make your point.

Offline motocyconomad

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #373 on: March 29, 2014, 07:22:55 AM »
Our right is not for hunting. Remember that and do not forget it. That is a byproduct. The principal reason for the peoples right to bear arms and form militias is to defend our own people from an out of control democracy, our republic has this law as a last ditch stop gap insurance and a way for that population to retain the laws of the republic from groups that try to lead us away from that towards tyranny. So if everyone is jumping off the cliff, not everyone is simply easily able to be forced to follow without an option/chance to resist.  We have several states that I call "fallen" because you can't even speak out, much less own any gun under a free un-encroached un-transgressed manner. That is a law that is inherent, absolute and not capable of being repudiated. I much more fear ATFE arming Mexican cartels (where the population can not own any firearms) or senators importing weapons from Asia to unknown end points inside the country, law enforcement in New York corralling and pepper spaying a group of girls peacefully protesting bank-sters, and IRS targeting political groups, than a civilian militia with explosive ordnance, a teacher with a holstered pistol, or some guy with a full auto option on his AR. The safety and security ploy has been around a long time to take advantage of and abuse/scare/kill people.

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #374 on: March 29, 2014, 03:59:21 PM »
Comparing guns to cars is like comparing your wife to a hooker..... I mean seriously ???

Quote
The principal reason for the peoples right to bear arms and form militias is to defend our own people from an out of control democracy,

Its already out of control mate and nothing is being done and really, nothing can be done with arms, that statement is just plain funny , it really is an American thing, "if it doesn't go our way then we'll just shoot it"....  Thats how the rest of the world sees it....
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