Poll

How far should gun control go?

I like were it is now.
Gun control is for wimps and communists.
Only cops and criminals should own a gun.
Guns are safe as long as you know how to use them.
No one should have one.
Obama can save us all.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #400 on: April 11, 2014, 07:03:57 AM »
The reported crime statistics between our two countries certainly agree with you, Retro. It is an unusual situation here in the States. My sister emigrated to Melbourne many years ago and had nothing but praise for how safe she felt, compared to the decades having lived in Washington, DC where she was victim of violent crime on 3 separate occasions.

Hitler's Germany and pre 1989 Czechoslovakia was also very safe.
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Offline motocyconomad

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #401 on: April 11, 2014, 08:48:06 AM »
with all due respect to our domestic and international brothers and sisters, our right has nothing to do with safety. It is not here to pursue hobbies or to make anything safe. I can see and admit that from the outside looking at us it may seem extreme and we do have people that are over the top and wacky(as with anything), but that being said, we as a nation had to fight to obtain our country. We did not get to vote it in to being we had to kill and fight. Our war against the British empire set the way for other countries to become what they are today and they got to do it by much more peaceful means without spilling the blood or cutting the ties like we had to do. Our right is in place to ensure the majority or some tyrants don't betray us or what we had to die for. It may not work out right and it may look unreasonable but it is something that is not able to be changed or manipulated without betraying us. Think of our right as a gauge to measure how far we stray from our rights. The more it is infringed upon, the more you can/will see your other rights go away.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #402 on: April 11, 2014, 06:02:20 PM »
What happens in the U.S. as it relates to firearms is a local matter, and it is our matter to deal with. When the US takes an action outside it's own Borders, the World Community has the right to comment.
Our internal belief system and it's consequences is ours to deal with as we see fit. It is an interesting debate, but will not resolve anything.

When that mentality is used over seas {not yours but the discussion} It has back fired in the US's face, there's more than one occasion where guns have been thrown at a country to help it fight a battle that suited the USA's agenda,  then those very arms have been used against US forces, i don't care where it is, throwing guns at any situation is just bad policy.. Bobby, just remember we are a multi national forum and a difference of opinion is just whats expected, its just like the bikes here, some like em stock, some like cafe's ... ;) ;)

What happens outside our borders is not part of this discussion. I do not agree with what has been going on now, and I did not agree with what I was stuck in the middle of.

We are States that came together a decade after the "American Rebellion" The States retain a certain amount of autonomy even in this day and age.
 
 The Governor of Texas has Little concern over the Governor of New York's problems. The Governor of Texas and his electoraite are happy with their present system, and they will resist intrusion by the Feds or anyone else.

With 50 States and sometimes conflicting Laws, it is can be confusing place, but it works for us. 

As children we were taught, we have individual rights. The right of the individual was paramount. Our heroes were Washington, Jefferson, Franklin. etc. These Patriots were considered traitors to the British Crown and would have been hung and buried in unmarked graves had the War gone the other way.  They would have been a footnote in history.

The Bill of Rights is all about protecting the people from the Government.

To us, they were heroes that championed the rights of the individual over the Government. They created a form a Government unique at the time.  This is a powerful concept for kids to learn.

In the Southern States, Robert E Lee ranks up there with the Founding Fathers. A gifted General, Commandant of the U.S Military Academy, who put it all on the line for what he believed in. 

Americans are taught to hold our rights dearly, and that issue is coming up again in things more important than firearms.

Our cultural heroes are people who are able to fend for themselves, independent, capable, and quick to take action when necessary.

That is our culture and we don't all agree with each other, when we disagree, both sides declare their "right" to voice their opinion. That is way it was supposed to be, they both have rights.

Americans also really like to be left alone. We really resent intrusions into our lives by outsiders. Even when we comply, it is grudgingly. If we have one universal trait, it is to be left alone.

This is a great discussion, I felt compelled to explain why my fellow Citizens will not be quick to agree with giving up what they feel is one of their individual rights.

Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #403 on: April 11, 2014, 08:44:44 PM »



Hitler's Germany and pre 1989 Czechoslovakia was also very safe.
[/quote]

Yikes :o...having a hard time believing you typed that.  I think some might disagree.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 01:09:41 AM by srust58 »

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #404 on: April 11, 2014, 09:45:46 PM »
What is to disagree with? US gun violence is very high compared to Australia, which is very low. Retro made the point that there's essentially not been a gun/spree violence episode in +10 years, whereas "it's common place" now in the US.

I'm confused by your statement? And what's with the pics of Dachau?

I was responding to 70CB750 and since he was responding to you yours got included.  I guess I should have deleted yours from my quote as it was unrelated.  I went back and deleted your post.

I am even more confused by the statement that Hitler's Germany was very safe.   I am just disagreeing.  It's a totally absurd statement.  The whole regime was a giant criminal enterprise and it affected the entire populace...from war crimes to petty crime the entire country was a giant crime scene.  Nobody was safe. 


As far as the gun debate we all hear about how law abiding citizens should just be able to buy guns and carry them around where ever they go.  What a drag background checks are and waiting periods, and personal freedoms blah blah blah.  There seems to be this conceit that people with legal permits to carry guns somehow would never break the law, they are immune to stress, alcohol or drug problems, mental health issues...they are better than everyone else.  Well that retired police officer who shot the guy in the Florida movie theater a while back...he was a law abiding citizen till that very moment.  The guy at Fort Hood...he was a law abiding citizen till that day, the employee who walked into Accent Signage and killed six people....he was a law abiding citizen until he pulled the trigger.  Hell even Adam Lanza was a law abiding citizen till he walked into the school.  I could go on for days.  And the answer just always seems to be even more guns.  If I would see someone with a gun whether legal or not (police/military excepted) all I see is a threat to my safety.  If someone walked into a restaurant, bar, store, the park, anywhere really, packing a gun I would leave immediately.  I don't know who they are or their mental state.  The fact that they may have a permit to carry it doesn't mean sh!t to me. They are just a stranger with a gun...why the fuk would I want to be around that?  I wouldn't even want to be around any of you if you were packing.  I am no stranger guns either.  Last year I gave away my 1930's vintage Reamington M31 12 ga.  I still have an old Marlin 336 but I really don't need that anymore either so I sent it out to my brother.  I am around hunting guns enough through my brother and my best friend who are both avid hunters and they don't really concern me.  I am just not fascinated with them.    If people want to keep handguns in their house that's up to them. It's their kids or their friends who may get their hands on them.  My brothers seemingly normal teenage son just went off the deep end with hard core drugs in very short order and is very troubled.  My brother had the sense to get all the guns out of the house right away.  Not every law abiding citizen does or sees it coming.
    We have a couple who are friends and the husband has always been something of a rightwingnut...listens to far to much radio.  So they buy this hobby farm recently and about that same time he really gets into the gun thing even to the point of steering conversations into gun rants and how he has to have a pistol out on the farm to feel safe.  He keeps inviting us along with our other friends out for an overnight visit but nobody is interested. ;D
     Of gun related deaths in the U.S. about 65% are caused by suicide and 35% by criminal action.  Gangs and inner city crime is not the largest factor as has been mentioned at some point.

And Retro...it's not all a crime ridden shooting gallery.  I have lived in the inner city here for 35 years and never had the need for a gun.  Never been the victim of violent crime, never even seen a violent crime. We are night people and in the summer we take the bike out and go to the city lakes to sit on the beach or the dock or go downtown to the riverfront park and stroll around....it might be midnight but we never feel under threat.  We have these big all night art and light festivals that take place at several locations all over the city.  So we are going all over the city at 2am...no need to arm ourselves.  We don't go to bars or clubs...I don't care to be around drunk people...maybe that has a little to do with it.  I guess if I lived in some sh!tty place where I had to arm myself to feel safe I might think about moving to a place where family values really mattered.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 01:33:33 AM by srust58 »

Offline scottly

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #405 on: April 11, 2014, 10:11:27 PM »
I know no one that feels they need a gun to be safe, no one at all, and if it were the case,  I would live somewhere else....
G'day Mick. :) If I were faced with the dreaded drop bears, I would want to be armed!!! ;D
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #406 on: April 12, 2014, 02:26:56 AM »

Heavy sarcasm was on. The fact is, the street and cities were much safer under dictatorship than any other time. Because lot of people were locked up and few risked hard punishments for small crimes. Also helped having cops everywhere - I could get carded 3 times between sunrise and sunset and I was not even 18 year old. The supervision by authorities was constant, you could get in jail if your iD did not contain confirmation that you are working. Jailed for being parasite, imagine that.

But if you kept your mouth shut, you were safe.



Hitler's Germany and pre 1989 Czechoslovakia was also very safe.

Yikes :o...having a hard time believing you typed that.  I think some might disagree.
[/quote]
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #407 on: April 12, 2014, 03:54:30 PM »
I know no one that feels they need a gun to be safe, no one at all, and if it were the case,  I would live somewhere else....
G'day Mick. :) If I were faced with the dreaded drop bears, I would want to be armed!!! ;D

Hahahaha..... ;)
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #408 on: April 12, 2014, 03:56:58 PM »

I was responding to 70CB750 and since he was responding to you yours got included.  I guess I should have deleted yours from my quote as it was unrelated.  I went back and deleted your post.

Thanks for the clarification

As far as the gun debate we all hear about how law abiding citizens should just be able to buy guns and carry them around where ever they go.  What a drag background checks are and waiting periods, and personal freedoms blah blah blah.  There seems to be this conceit that people with legal permits to carry guns somehow would never break the law, they are immune to stress, alcohol or drug problems, mental health issues...they are better than everyone else.  Well that retired police officer who shot the guy in the Florida movie theater a while back...he was a law abiding citizen till that very moment.  The guy at Fort Hood...he was a law abiding citizen till that day, the employee who walked into Accent Signage and killed six people....he was a law abiding citizen until he pulled the trigger.  Hell even Adam Lanza was a law abiding citizen till he walked into the school.  I could go on for days.  And the answer just always seems to be even more guns.

And now with the most recent school incident in PA being a knife, do we now "outlaw" them as well? The very day the Newtown, CT incident occurred, a lone man in China assaulted a school with a knife and did terrible harm so there is certainly precedent for this new global legislation

 If I would see someone with a gun whether legal or not (police/military excepted) all I see is a threat to my safety.  If someone walked into a restaurant, bar, store, the park, anywhere really, packing a gun I would leave immediately.  I don't know who they are or their mental state.  The fact that they may have a permit to carry it doesn't mean sh!t to me. They are just a stranger with a gun...why the fuk would I want to be around that?  I wouldn't even want to be around any of you if you were packing.

iIs this also true when you see a uniformed police officer, or is it only "plain clothed individuals?

I am no stranger guns either.  Last year I gave away my 1930's vintage Reamington M31 12 ga.  I still have an old Marlin 336 but I really don't need that anymore either so I sent it out to my brother.  I am around hunting guns enough through my brother and my best friend who are both avid hunters and they don't really concern me.  I am just not fascinated with them.    If people want to keep handguns in their house that's up to them. It's their kids or their friends who may get their hands on them.

For someone familiar with guns, you seem unusually afraid of them as if they, themselves are inherently evil

We have a couple who are friends and the husband has always been something of a rightwingnut...listens to far to much radio.

Is it "far too much radio" because the station presents a different point of view than yours? Isn't what you are denouncing the very "right" you are exercising? Seems a bit hypocritical there..

So they buy this hobby farm recently and about that same time he really gets into the gun thing even to the point of steering conversations into gun rants and how he has to have a pistol out on the farm to feel safe.

Perhaps because he now lives in a remote location where uniformed law enforcement is not readily available, he does feel the need for personal protection. Perhaps the area is frequented by criminals. If you refuse to go, then how can you judge? But, like you, if I knew I needed a gun to go "there" I too would likely stay away.

Of gun related deaths in the U.S. about 65% are caused by suicide and 35% by criminal action.  Gangs and inner city crime is not the largest factor as has been mentioned at some point.

I would love to see the reputable source for this statistic

I have lived in the inner city here for 35 years and never had the need for a gun.  Never been the victim of violent crime, never even seen a violent crime.

You are among many that live their entire life free from violence. It's a large part of what makes this country safe, is that public safety is generally, very, very high. But, you must also give some consideration to the indisputable fact that public safety is by a large measure created by our penal system and our law enforcement officers, who are openly armed. This is a deterrent to some, however remote the possibility of a cop "snapping" and shooting a movie-goer.

I think you make Retro's point quite well, that there is a very different mentality here in the States. We have many great features and aspects to our country and society, and many unpleasant and disgusting ones too. These seem to occur as a result of our "Rights" to choose as guaranteed by our laws. The fact that you differ in your choices from others with respect to firearms doesn't mean their choice isn't legitimate or equally founded in their experience. Diversity should not be met with adversity. Differences should bind us, not be met with intolerance and disparaging "rants".

I think Retro's point of a mentality issue is at the crux of our society problems. We do see public mass assaults now with greater regularity. It's disconcerting to say the least. It fuels the human need for self-preservation and gives greater credence to those who believe they need all reasonable means to protect themselves, where ever they are. Whether that is fundamentally true or not, it is their belief.

But as I said earlier, to what lights would you go to eliminate all possible tools of violence from public availability? What rights, freedoms and choices are you willing to surrender permanently to live with a greater feeling of safety? You state that for 35 years you've lived "threat-free". If so, then why do you see a need to change the laws to effect others baed upon your experience? Perhaps their experience has been quite different?


I'm not the best for getting a point across on paper, beer, friends and conversation are far better suited to me , you made my point perfectly... ;)  I also agree with Prokop, sarcasm is quite hard to read online.... ;)
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #409 on: April 14, 2014, 08:48:47 AM »



Hitler's Germany and pre 1989 Czechoslovakia was also very safe.

Yikes :o...having a hard time believing you typed that.  I think some might disagree.

[/quote]

That is a textbook example of American's misunderstanding of Hitler and similar dictatorship's in Europe in his days - such as Mussolini.  They did not get the nation's support by publicly announcing: we will kill all Jews and the whole opposition.   The beginning was very agreeable to the average Herr Schmidt or Frau Miller.  They locked up and punished criminals, gypsies, bums and homeless people, also gays, they made things work better - like the railway in Italy - and introduced a vast number of popular and to the average citizen appealing programs.   Here are some:

 Hitler and the Nazis called for reining in German financial institutions, job creation, making the fat cats pay their fair share and for increased spending on social welfare programs.

The Nazi Party also won friends and influenced people by community organizing. They ran soup kitchens, promoted youth programs and championed the 99% in issues like landlord tenant relations, particularly in their main base of Munich.

Adolf Hitler in power enacted a number of important reforms and institute his progressive program without being impeded by a set-in-stone constitution or partisan bickering. He promised Germans a new society and his word for this was 'volksgemeinschaft', a 'people's community.'

Hitler and Nazis ended labor abuses and a number of strikes plaguing Germany by creating the German Labor Front as an umbrella organization to represent all workers, administrators, and company owners. He banned strikes, firings without government approval and lockouts. This ensured that government would be the ultimate protector of worker's rights and the arbitrator of all labor disputes, something American labor leaders like Richard Trumka and Jimmy Hoffa Jr. have been advocating for years.

Farmers received subsidies and guaranteed prices for their crops in exchange for increased government supervision over what they grew and how they did it, and were given loans for tools, livestock and seed, as well as  labor to work their farms by the state if needed.

While Hitler recognized the sanctity of private property, he also was emphatic that the government should have the power to regulate the use of private property for the good of the nation since it had been acquired with the help and use of public personnel and infrastructure - aka, you did not build this.

At Hitler's direction his finance minister Hjalmar Schacht instituted Keynesnian policies with large deficits and and low interest rates combined with stimulus programs of pubic works to reduce unemployment. Hitler also mandated price freezes to prevent a recurrence of inflation. He started numerous public sector programs that actually got built, including the construction of dams, the autobahns, railroads, and public buildings as well as a military build up that later superseded the public works policies while maintaining high employment and job creation.

Hitler and the Nazis also were very involved in picking winners and losers among Germany's corporate and manufacturing concerns, swapping preferential treatment,government contracts and loans  and policies that benefited specific well connected and supportive companies in exchange  for political and financial support for Hitler and his policies.In essence, Hitler made sectors of German business his partners in building the Third Reich while suppressing other, non-supportive players..certainly a tactic we've seen used recently with great success.

Hitler revamped Germany's healthcare system and made it truly universal as well as state subsidized.Hitler and the Nazis considered healthcare to be the right of all Germans, and there were numerous public-health campaigns in Nazi Germany urging healthy eating and exercise, and even no smoking campaigns at a time when cigarettes and cigars were being puffed with abandon worldwide.

Hitler enacted strong environmentalist legislation, such as the 1935 "Reich Nature Protection Act" which sought to control air and water pollution, reduce the use of coal and promote forest management and preservation.

.. all that led to the situation, that I summarized in simple statement: Hitler's Germany was also considered very safe.  And it was, unlike random and chaotic process in Soviet Russia - if you read Solzenicyn's Gulag, you know what I am talking about - Hitler's Germany pampered and took care of the workers and middle class, while the price for it was personal freedom of everybody and destruction of other races and groups that did not fit the vision of the future Germany.
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Offline demon78

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #410 on: May 20, 2014, 12:12:17 PM »
Just read the last few posts and I know that I should keep my mouth closed,,, but
Bobby makes the point the Americans like to be left alone, agreed, but so do Canadians and it seems that Americans don't like Canadians to have a viewpoint that may be different than theirs, so I guess in North America we should have that big fence to keep out the "wetbacks" my feelings though if we have the fence we should have an electronic fence to keep out "electronic wetbacks" as well, I know, I know, that's not fair (it would affect commerce) but my point is the world is smaller than it used to be and now we are all in each others hip pockets.
Guns, fine keep them in the states, not here, we'll sort our own way through.
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PS this is only my maunderings delete as needed.
 

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #411 on: May 20, 2014, 06:23:29 PM »
Just read the last few posts and I know that I should keep my mouth closed,,, but
Bobby makes the point the Americans like to be left alone, agreed, but so do Canadians and it seems that Americans don't like Canadians to have a viewpoint that may be different than theirs, so I guess in North America we should have that big fence to keep out the "wetbacks" my feelings though if we have the fence we should have an electronic fence to keep out "electronic wetbacks" as well, I know, I know, that's not fair (it would affect commerce) but my point is the world is smaller than it used to be and now we are all in each others hip pockets.
Guns, fine keep them in the states, not here, we'll sort our own way through.
Bill the demon.
PS this is only my maunderings delete as needed.

I am not sure a fence is in order, but I spent some time in Canada and felt very comfortable. Canada is a sovereign nation that has every right to have it's own laws and customs.  From my time in Canada I get the impression the U.S. can be a difficult neighbor.

Sorry Bill,  the World will not turn backwards for any of us. We can only make the best of the situation we find ourselves.   
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Offline demon78

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #412 on: May 20, 2014, 08:41:28 PM »
I know Bobby, sorry it was a grumpy day, when I have grumpy day not much good (intelligent/enlightenment what ever) comes out of the demon. At this stage and age of the game if it's not enlightenment it's BS.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #413 on: January 27, 2015, 10:23:10 AM »
Better social welfare system should (in theory) reduce the need of guns for protection (and attack or money collector). Free education, medical, help, hospital  dentist disharge etc. etc. as we have in Sweden. (But we import a lot of chriminals that use weapons from problematic countries/religions...)
Then we can talk about real democracy. People from poor families will never have a chance otherwise, easy to choose the crimimal way. The richest people do not pay much in tax, right?

My theory is that there are many companies, people that make money on the bad situation so they will work hard for not having a basic welfare system for all citizens. The gun industry will loose a lot of money.....

Weapons for recreation as hunting must be OK. I think its difficult to change the situation. I understand people having guns for safety.
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Offline supersports400

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #414 on: January 27, 2015, 11:58:37 AM »
Hi,

Living in the Netherlands, occupied by the Germans from 1940 to 1945, I fully agree with the text of 70CB750.
The situation was different IN occupied country's, but the amount of guns in public hands wouldn't not have made a lot of difference.

Jensen

« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 12:04:19 PM by jensen »

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #415 on: January 27, 2015, 02:09:26 PM »
Hi,

Living in the Netherlands, occupied by the Germans from 1940 to 1945, I fully agree with the text of 70CB750.
The situation was different IN occupied country's, but the amount of guns in public hands wouldn't not have made a lot of difference.

Jensen
I suggest you do some reading on the Warsaw uprising. The partisans held the German Army at bay for 63 days. Yes they finally lost, but they went down fighting. Never underestimate the ability of the citizenry to harass and confound even the best equipped Army. 
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #416 on: January 27, 2015, 02:16:00 PM »
Not just Warsaw, partisans in Yugoslavia forced Germans to maintain there more divisions than in the rest of Western Europe.

Also is worse to note, that Russians waited outside Warsaw till Germans cleared polish resistance out - and germans used soldiers of general Vlasov to fight them, one of the darker chapters of already dark times.

Also Slovak uprising was noticable in about the same time, they redeemed themselves for being a fascist state.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #417 on: January 27, 2015, 02:40:12 PM »
I rest my case. An armed population is very hard to counter.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline supersports400

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #418 on: January 27, 2015, 11:52:21 PM »
Our government gave the Netherlands away after the Germans bombed Rotterdam, I don't think the amount of weapons would have changed that.
The German Blitzkrieg was very effective against our naive government and Royal family (half dutch half German), who fled away instantly, leaving the Dutch behind.
Our local Government helped the Germans to locate and track down Jews, our traincompany NS was paid 2,5 million Euro by the Germans to transport the Jews to the border.

My point is that I agree that citizens should have guns to defend the country because history tells me that our Government / Army, when it gets really nasty, won't do where they are paid for.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Gun control (The official gun thread!)
« Reply #419 on: January 28, 2015, 12:10:22 AM »
i didn't want to get involved here but this is a nice example:

the principles you guys mention here are actually applied in switzerland where i lived for about 2 years and have friends there. they have a trained and armed citizen-army. every man has to to do basic training and every year they get a refresher. they keep their weapons in their homes (well rifles etc, not heavy stuff like tanks of course).

nobody ever thought of invading switzerland, not even hitler for whom it would have been a short walk across the border. with the terrain they have and virtually everyone turning into a guerilla fighter it would turn into nightmare.

at the same time, gun crime is incredibly low in switzerland. don't ask me why but it is.