Topic: Cryogenics Update-1. thanks to Ecosse and 2. chains OK

[MCRider]

Hello: Thanks to Ecosse for intro to Cryogenics, specifically www.cryogenicsofindiana.com.

Jeff Collins proprietor just came to my door with my kickstart shafts in hand. We went out to the shop and i showed him all i had in mind. Lower fork legs, cam blocks, cams rockers, valve springs, fork springs, etc. all OK.

Biggest surprise, I had my APE crank on the workbench with the primary chains on it and rememebreing Mick's question I asked him point blank how about chains? he said absolutley. In fact, if there were 2 items you could only do he would say do springs (valve springs) and chains. Only caveat is he would prefer to do new parts. If used parts are to be done he would prefer you have it xrayed or such to rule out cracks. Cryo will make cracks worse. Bottom line is standard 2x service life. Reduced stretch and breakage frequency.

I asked him if brake rotors lose any friction characteristics he said no, though its a bit counterintuitive. His bread and butter is cutting tools and Metro Indiana emergency vehicle brake rotors. But his background is racing and enjoys doing oddball racing stuff. His dad was crew chief (member?) for Tom Sneva, etc. He enjoys vintage race stuff. Always good to have someone with some enthusiasm in what you do.

Surprise- ORing chains are OK also, but the deal is Orings must be allowed to regain -50degree+ before handling or the rubber shatters. A simple note warning them of rubber content will assure proper handling.

They do the extra mile by baking parts after freezing for the final conversion of blah blah to blah blah (it got technical). he implied some Cryo places don't bake.

He's working on a deal to do valve springs for PSI. He does thousands for ProStock dragsters.

More later.

[MCRider]

he repeated the original offer that if he hasn't done it before he'll do it for free and let the customer decide.

[Otto]

I worked at a place about 20 years a go that did Cryogenics. For a test they did some chain saw blades and cheapo bic razors.

No matter what you did with the chainsaw chains, they stayed sharp forever!
 
The bic razors lasted forever too!

Just thought I'd throw that in for info.

really neat stuff!

bc

[MCRider]

I worked at a place about 20 years a go that did Cryogenics. For a test they did some chain saw blades and cheapo bic razors.

No matter what you did with the chainsaw chains, they stayed sharp forever!
 
The bic razors lasted forever too!

Just thought I'd throw that in for info.

really neat stuff!

bc

Thanks bc. It sounds almost too good to be true. I've really hunted on the internet to uncover "the myth of cryogenics" but I'm not finding it.

At worst, some comments that there was no noticable improvement. But way more than that, the "2x service life" seems to be the story.

[HavocTurbo]

What about aluminum pistons? Would that even matter?

[MCRider]

What about aluminum pistons? Would that even matter?

Pistons are on the "doable" list. I'm guessing since they don't really wear too much, at least not before other things give out, that you'd be looking for some skirt protection.

So that makes e wonder about piston rings. I'll ask next time. I suspect no problem, and reduced wear.

My guy didn't bring it up, but on other Cryo sites they claim increased horsepower from reduced friction, especially in trannys, so pistons (and rings) should count there as well.

[HavocTurbo]

Since I'm lazy and didn't check the site out.... price based on weight? Seems like a pretty cheap way of adding some insurance.

[MCRider]

Since I'm lazy and didn't check the site out.... price based on weight? Seems like a pretty cheap way of adding some insurance.

From the site "All machined parts can distort if they have not been stress relieved.  Pistons can change from round to oval due to stress and temperature.  When this happens the piston drags the cylinder wall which takes horsepower away, creates heat, and wears the cylinder walls.  It then requires the engine builder to rebore the cylinders by 2 to 3 thousandths.  Cylinders that have been Cryogenic treated will normally be out of round only a 1/4 to a 1/2 of a thousandths, a big decrease in wear from a non treated cylinder. "

So they are more or as concerned with the cylinders than the pistons. He did say always treat first, then machine (bore) it. Or anything that requires machining, treat it first.

Price-$25 per 10lbs. He reserves the right to bump it for special handling. You probably have a place near you like Chicago. But Lebanon IN is not too far away by UPS.

I'll be packing up some lots to treat. Brake rotors, tranny, chains, lower fork legs, cam towers, etc.

[MCRider]

Other caveats: Jeff said that there are some parts made in China usually that are very pourous and these will break in cryo. Example was the low end NAPA replacement brake rotors. Came up discussing chains, as some low end chains come from China and are porous steel which will pop and shatter in Cryo.

He was doing some diamoind tipped saw blades and the tips were soldered on and the solder was porous and the tips popped off. Blades made in China.

But mid- to high end parts shouldn't be a problem ever.

[Otto]

Another thought.

Doing a chain may be a great idea,but, I wouldn't do it unless I did both sprockets too. As hard as that chain is going to be after being Cryo'd, I bet it'll chew up a "soft" sprocket pretty quick.

bc

[MCRider]

Another thought.

Doing a chain may be a great idea,but, I wouldn't do it unless I did both sprockets too. As hard as that chain is going to be after being Cryo'd, I bet it'll chew up a "soft" sprocket pretty quick.

bc

That's a good thought, and Jeff did bring it up that often when you tighten up one area you expose the weakness somewhere else.

On the primary or cam chains, a little difficult to do the sprockets. Could buy a new cam chain sprocket.

On a drive chain, both sprockets can be easily done and I'll likely do mine, new parts, and not the chain.  Course i haven't bought the chain yet so maybe I will.

In principle though, the way i understand it, the hardness as "rockwell" is only increased a tad. The real benefit is that the molecular structure is aligned and closed up, relieving stress. So maybe not as hard on stock sprockets as thought.

[Inigo Montoya]

I would have to say that this sounds pretty interesting. Did he say if something like this could be done to spokes?

[MCRider]

I would have to say that this sounds pretty interesting. Did he say if something like this could be done to spokes?

I called him and he said he's never done spokes. I asked and he doesn't anticipate a problem with the threading or the nipple etc.  They will be stronger.

Just no personal experience.

Virtually everything is doable, and the problems come from an assembled part with differing metals. For example, to do my lower fork legs, he recommended removing the studs from the bottom as they are steel and the expansion rates differ enough something might break.

[Ecosse]

this is encouraging. i stumbled upon it while looking for heavy duty brake rotors for a front wheel drive car; they sometimes are under engineered. i did a bunch of research too looking for the 'myth exposed', but found nothing. i asked a few  machinists but the ones i talked to didn't seem familiar. maybe they didn't want business reduced? 

i figured this was a natural for our old machines. some parts may not be up to hot rodding beyond a point and some parts are hard to get new. maybe cases would be good too.

i was thinking of installing an aluminum rear sprocket but was concerned about service life.

[Sporkfly]

If rockwell doesn't really increase much (from what I read on the site), then the real benefit of this is a smoother surface. I'm kind of curious about the technical aspects of how freezing would cause the surface to be less porous, it doesn't seem like it would work with my limited knowledge of chemistry and physics. Of course, hot water freezes faster than cold water - and the reason that relates is because sometimes when something doesn't seem logical on the surface, it is at a molecular level. Dang, now I'm going to have to find more information on this!

[HavocTurbo]

On a drive chain, both sprockets can be easily done and I'll likely do mine, new parts, and not the chain.  Course i haven't bought the chain yet so maybe I will.

If you decide that you are in the market for a chain let me know. I'll ship it directly to him. Might even have some aluminum sprockets available.

[new2novas]

cyro treating is awesome stuff....there is no myth, what it does (according to info i have gathered) is align the molecules in a way to blah blah blah, heres some info...plenty out there, just google cyrogenic and racing or something to that effect

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/toolsteels.html

[MCRider]

cyro treating is awesome stuff....there is no myth, what it does (according to info i have gathered) is align the molecules in a way to blah blah blah, heres some info...plenty out there, just google cyrogenic and racing or something to that effect

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/toolsteels.html

Great link. Just one pearly "stress increases corrosion". Relief stress relive corrosion. Among all the other benefits. While this is new to many of us, its old hat to others. It does add a step and delay to all manufacturing and assembly activities so unless one is serious its an easy step to skip.

One example i see right away, buy a new cam chain, treat it, and use the stock tensioner. The chain will stretch less putting less wear on the tensioner. It'll probably outlive me.