Author Topic: Opinion on this K1 pic... (Read 4538 times)

Johnie · « **on:** March 14, 2009, 06:23:09 AM »

This is a close up of the fork seals on the K1 I picked up a couple weeks ago. Have started the work on the bike and noticed the fork seals leaking...no big deal. See the pic below...are these seals in upside down? Note the groove is facing up which was filled with oil.

JLeather · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2009, 06:33:21 AM »

I think those are upside down. I was pretty sure the flat part of the seal went up, and I also thought there was a washer that went on top.

Johnie · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2009, 06:45:13 AM »

I have an old parts manual that came with this K1 and it does not show the washer under the circlip? But I got an extra pair of forks from the guy and those have the washer. Maybe some of you K1 guys will know. In looking at the pic there is no room for the washer unless the guy did not push that seal down to the lip.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:45:05 AM »

That seal is definitely upside down.

mystic_1

MCRider · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:52:43 AM »

Quote from: mystic_1 on March 14, 2009, 07:45:05 AM

That seal is definitely upside down.

mystic_1

Gotta agree with that.

Also, I'm looking at the K1 fiche from Bike Bandit and it shows the washer on top of the seal. I'm thinking there are some aftermarket seals, maybe even OEM substitutions that are so-called "triple lip" and stand taller doing away with the washer. Working off memory here so I may be wrong.

754 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:58:37 AM »

I think they are installed by what is known as the "Aus" method..

I ran the pic by a buddy that lives in Brisbane, and he thought they looked OK....

MCRider · « **Reply #6 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:32:38 AM »

Quote from: 754 on March 14, 2009, 07:58:37 AM

I think they are installed by what is known as the "Aus" method..

I ran the pic by a buddy that lives in Brisbane, and he thought they looked OK....

I heard that cranks turn backwards in OZ as well.

WHALEMAN · « **Reply #7 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:42:46 AM »

Yes, For sure upside down. Dan

bryanj · « **Reply #8 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:43:01 AM »

SOME makes of seal have a spring lip on both sides so it may be upside down or it may be right.

If its leaking and there are no pits in the tube or damage to the chrome you gonna have to take them out and see anyway.

Q. is the oil leaking between the seal and steel tube or around the outside of the seal 'cos if the alloy tube is ~~butchered~~ er damaged by a big screwdriver when pulling the old seal oil will always leak

754 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:50:11 AM »

bryanj,
good points.. I remember now,
There was available, what they termed a "Lifetime Fork Seal", and it looked like that, a lip omn top and bottom, supported to the outer case by a rib in the middle.

HondaMan · « **Reply #10 on:** March 14, 2009, 09:00:34 AM »

Depends on the seal:

Some aftermarket seals, the generic Teflon-coated type like I use, go in as shown in your picture. They come with an optional washer, too. If the bore where the seal fits in is perfect, you can go without the washer and it will reduce the stiction over small bumps by accelerating the fork a little before the seal stops moving: very effective. But, this arrangement can weep a bit of oil. Adding the washer below the seal will raise the seal up and often reduce the oil weeping, but the stiction increases because it locks the seal in place, not allowing it to wiggle and distort during acceleration. Adding the washer on top causes the same situation, but will not reduce the weeping if it is installed "upside down". This last option is definitely not the one to do.

The generic ones may also be run the other way, to reduce oil leaks, but will also increase stiction in the process. They function better as air fork seals this direction, which is the more commonly-installed direction.

If it is Honda's own seal, it's in upside down. Honda's seals are longer, and have a full metal shell, so no washer is required. Honda's seals have up to 3 lips in them, making them the worst at stiction over small bumps.

Your PO might have been experimenting with this whole 'stiction reduction' activity. It was a big deal during the 1980s and 1990s with these popular bikes.

Johnie · « **Reply #11 on:** March 14, 2009, 09:57:22 AM »

Great information...I have ordered some from Honda so I will put the groove down as you suggest. Gosh, you guys sure know a lot about fork seals. Thanks so much!!!

bryanj · « **Reply #12 on:** March 14, 2009, 10:26:10 AM »

Thats 'cos we is geriatric old farts who were arround when they were still NEW Yeh Yeh I know speak for yourself !!!

mystic_1 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 14, 2009, 11:09:03 AM »

When my bike was brand new, I was brand new too

mystic_1

coyotecowboy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 14, 2009, 11:40:41 AM »

I got seals from partsnmore the other day, they are double lipped with a retainer spring on each side, but the shell is rubber (or teflon) coated with a lip on one side for your driver (read socket lol)to rest on. Are these the seals like you use Mark? And can a guy convert a K2 to air forks? I can't seem to find a consistant answer about that. If so, what would the right orientation for the seals be then?

HondaMan · « **Reply #15 on:** March 14, 2009, 02:15:37 PM »

Quote from: coyotecowboy on March 14, 2009, 11:40:41 AM

I got seals from partsnmore the other day, they are double lipped with a retainer spring on each side, but the shell is rubber (or teflon) coated with a lip on one side for your driver (read socket lol)to rest on. Are these the seals like you use Mark? And can a guy convert a K2 to air forks? I can't seem to find a consistant answer about that. If so, what would the right orientation for the seals be then?

They sound pretty similar. If you want to go to air forks, be sure to use Teflon-laced oil or moly-laced oil in the forks.
Start with the hollow side of the seal down, but without the backup washer (if they come with one). This will let it float and align itself, especially with the air.

Get some Schraeder valves that are threaded (like the ones used on mag wheels), then drill & tap the fork cap to accept the threads. They are usually pretty fine threads, so make sure of the tap before using it. On mine, I used the vlaves that poke thru from inside, with a nut on the top, and had to add an extra big O-ring inside to seal it up. That was 30+ years ago: still works fine. Consider getting tricky, and plumb them together with some clear hose or something, and manifold those together into one valve: it is a little easier to balance the air PSI between them. As it is, I hit them with about a sneeze, then keep reading the PSI with a tire gauge multiple times until the PSI drops down to about 5 or 6. Just have to do it twice, because mine aren't connected. Maybe one day, when I'm not working on someone else's bike... I'd like to make an inverted "V"-shaped black bracket with a valve in it and a Tee underneath, going to each fork with some of those press-in 1/8" anodized nipple fittings. That would make for simple, wrenchless disconnection when unforking.

coyotecowboy · « **Reply #16 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:23:31 PM »

Wow, thanks for the tip Mark, really cleared it up for me! "T"ing them together shouldnt be a problem, just take 2 1/8th pipe X 1/8th airline compression adapters (straight or 90) and run to a 1/8 pipe brass tee with the valve in it (should be 1/8th also)

Also, do you run the normal shock oil level with air shocks or does it require more since it will be under a little pressure?

MCRider · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:26:46 PM »

Wow you guys. I built just that in 1980. I post pics tomorow.

I always ran the stock amt of oil and about 5psi. K2 forks. I thought it made for a better ride and progressivity in brake dive. It held the pressure very well.

HondaMan · « **Reply #18 on:** March 14, 2009, 07:54:45 PM »

MC has it right, Cowboy, same 7.3 ounces of oil as stock. It foams less when under air pressure, so it cools the forks better and they perform more evenly.

Hey MC, looking forward to those pics!

MCRider · « **Reply #19 on:** March 15, 2009, 04:44:52 PM »

Quote from: HondaMan on March 14, 2009, 07:54:45 PM

MC has it right, Cowboy, same 7.3 ounces of oil as stock. It foams less when under air pressure, so it cools the forks better and they perform more evenly.

Hey MC, looking forward to those pics!

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Hopefully its of interest to the forum.

here's my AirFork setup I made back in 1980. It has an equalizer tube

Your looking at the front-on view. The hoses would rise from the caps, curl over the handlebars and into the "T". The T was in a strip which bolted between the two rearward handlebar clamps. The air filler was thus centered between the handlebar clamps on the gas tank side.

The caps were drilled, tapped and fitted with these brass fittings. Its all done with very small tubing like used on automotive air shocks, and compression fittings.

In looking for these, I had to find them for my current project as i will refurbish the parts and use it over, I ran across these storebought caps:

They have the fittings coming out the sides. They are set up for an equalizer tube as well. The small black barbs would accept a tiny tube which i could not locate.

View from the top:

These have never been mounted on a bike, brand new. I would like to sell them, $35 +S&H. Priority Flat Rate box anywhere is $4.95.

coyotecowboy · « **Reply #20 on:** March 15, 2009, 05:54:09 PM »

MC, are the store-bought caps threaded 1/8th pipe for the valves? I'm interested in them if they are, because I'll have to lose my drag bars if I want to run fittings out of the top. Master cylinder banjo fitting covers the right hand cap. Plus mine look like hell

Also (thread hijack still on

) when you swapped your fork lowers side to side, did your speedo gear drive clear the brake disc? Thinking about doing it while I've got things this far apart.

OK, hijack off I swear

[skillfully edited for spelling

]

MCRider · « **Reply #21 on:** March 15, 2009, 06:09:23 PM »

Quote from: coyotecowboy on March 15, 2009, 05:54:09 PM

MC, are the store-bought caps threaded 1/8th pipe for the valves? I'm interested in them if they are, because I'll have to lose my drag bars if I want to run fittings out of the top. Master cylinder banjo fitting covers the right hand cap. Plus mine look like hell

Also (thread hijack still on ) when you swapped your fork lowers side to side, did your speedo gear drive clear the brake disc? Thinking about doing it while I've got things this far apart.

OK, hijack off I swear

[skillfully edited for spelling ]

I think the "off-hijack" is a lost cause at this point.

Excuse my dumbness, how would I know if they are 1/8th pipe?

As to the brakes and flipping the forks, if its a single disc, no prob. If its dual disc, you have to modify the drive to sit down in the disc. But that's a function of the dual disc conversion, not the fork swap.

My expereince with the fork swap stops at K2. Only problem is flipping the fender on its center mounting bracket.

Seems there are fitment problems with the caliper hangers after that. Not impossible just different than my experience. Some are struggling with it.

PS: Now that i think of it, their problem is still with the dual disc conversion. So the fork swap alone is fairly easy.

coyotecowboy · « **Reply #22 on:** March 15, 2009, 07:51:19 PM »

OK, then I'm in the clear because I have a K2

Those look like 1/8th pipe threads in the pics, it should just be a tapered thread and 1/8" will be the same size as what your grease gun ends are, just for reference. Don't even bother trying to measure pipe, because unless you have a conversion chart (or know them by eye like me) you'll be chasing your tail.

Pretty sure a Schraeder valve will be 1/8" pipe thread (NPT) though

MCRider · « **Reply #23 on:** March 15, 2009, 08:28:54 PM »

Looks like the same size I screwed into the top of my chrome fork cap nuts. Definitely a small tapered pipe thread. With a different fitting , one could use the small tubing and compression fittings like I've used, and just ditch the fittings that came from the manufacturer.

coyotecowboy · « **Reply #24 on:** March 15, 2009, 08:56:21 PM »

Yeah, thats 1/8th pipe.

Cool, mark those babies SOLD!!

We can swap addresses tommorow, my honey is calling me to bed

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Author Topic: Opinion on this K1 pic... (Read 4538 times)

WHALEMAN