Author Topic: The Strait Pipes Debate  (Read 11281 times)

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adjutis

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2009, 05:26:01 AM »
I just stumbled over this one. I'm a newbie here. I have worked on quite a few types of engines. Cars and bikes both 2 and 4 stroke. Expansion chambers to 4 into 1. First I'd say the Mopar figures for pipe sizes can be very inaccurate, the camshaft and headwork can very easily tilt those numbers into uselessness. They're totally useless on bikes. My view they are generally too small. One of my specialties was American Motors V-8, not many people know those but those that do know that they were extremely underrated engines. I have run several different sizes of them from street type engines all the way up to 9 second 1/4 milers at 140 mph. Also have some VERY BIG big block Chevy experience with normally aspirated engines from 500 to over 700 inches that ran over 200 mph. You can start with exhaust formulas to get started but everything after that is trial and error. The formula (there are like 50 of them) will NEVER be dead on. For instance on the AMC cars we found that the heads breathed so well that we were using carbs totally in the realm of impossibility if you went by like the Holley carb suggestion. 800 cfm carbs on 304 inch motors along with 1 7/8 headers, needed them bigger. That on engines with only 8.5/1 compression and hydraulic cams, motors would spin to 7500 rpm all day long. Same with exhaust, we used much bigger primary OD than normal and engines ran like hell, yet had plenty of mid range too. Cars are easier to do that than bikes are as cars have narrower rpm ranges than bikes. When was the last time you saw a car on the street running at 10,000 rpm? Car torque peak almost always locked in between 3 and 4 thousand rpm, there's just not a lot of movement there. Bikes though, can move peak around much more than that. My view is that straights are worthless, they have too narrow a powerband because reverse pulse is set up based on the open end of the pipe. There's not enough working reflection area. I have seen people take off 4 into 1 and add straights to kill power because they were no good at setting car up to bite. 4 into 4? A waste of time, it's a stock exhaust and will stay that way. 4 into 1 much better because each cylinder helps out the others to make a pipe that can work well in mid range AND on the other end. 4 into 2 or 4-2-1 not that useful to me, they help bottom and mid, but you will lose some top with them. Any 4 to 2 combo needs to match the pipes so that the event spacings are even at 180 degrees on 4 cylinder, that means the 2 middle cylinders pair and the 2 outside pair, you don't see many pipes like that. Pairing 1-2 and 3-4 is worthless, the events are lopsided and lose max effect. I notice no one here has mentioned a megaphone type 4 into 1, that system makes the most power. The meg spreads out the sonic wave to make the maximum use of it. Makes for a broad sonic wave that covers more than just a few hundred rpm. The hottest ones can even have a reverse cone on the end to prevent over extraction when using a really aggressive angle in the diverging cone. Diverging cone generally 7 to 11 degrees, you know it's right by the noise quotient. When right those sound waves get to ear shattering level just like a 2 stroke chamber. I happen to have an old beat up CB550F with the original header on it, I cobbled up a meg to fit with a 1 3/4 core, it picked up some mid range when I did it. With a meg, you can also pick a certain type baffle core (say like Kerker type with many small holes), yank the glass out and have a system that is fairly quiet when around the cops but sounds great when hotdogging it. That type core will even let the megaphone work similar to open exhaust, it will pick up a very noticeable amount of torque even with the baffle in since the sound wave can still reflect down the cone like uncorked. As far as needing some back pressure, it's an old wives tale to me. It probably helps on single pipes, but on collected pipes like header I have seen virtually every engine I ever worked on make more power the less pressure you had in system.

Hope I didn't talk your ear off.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2009, 06:00:28 AM »
The info is well beyond my skill level and knowledge  ;), but welcome just the same.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline fdbrat

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2009, 07:21:46 PM »
Adjutis- Guy that is perfect. I still have my original mega phone. I would like to try your mod to the pipe.
I dont like how big and clunky the muffler is. Is there a shorter one you could recommend.

So pull the cork, pull the glass, and put the cork back in and drill a few extra holes in it?????

You have some good insight.

And to the rest L.A. Was cool, I met some rad people.
1975 CB750F
4-4, Dyna S and box
5 ohm coils / 5k ohm caps
In- .05 / Ex- .08

San Luis Obispo

Offline Flying J

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2009, 07:28:07 PM »
Most engines in California are put through so many restrictions. And because of this there is a loss of power.

I dont think california had many regulations on bikes in the 70s.
Stock pipes are the best for all around performance.
Purple is the new Black.
Loud pipes dont save lives, they just sound wicked.
I run open headers on my 750F, and i love it when kids cover their ears and cry as i ride by. J/K
It takes 324 licks to reach the center of a loli pop

<<<<WARNING>>>>>>
The above was an opinion and likely ill informed
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 07:29:47 PM by ffjmoore »

Offline Philly550K1

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2009, 09:25:30 AM »
behold.

this is for entertainment and discussion purposes only. is that a throttle butterfly? would it hold up to exhaust temperatures?

Offline cafe750

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #80 on: March 23, 2009, 10:11:21 AM »
Sort of....that's an exhaust cutout....edit....that is just a throttle body at the end of the pipe... :D
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 03:28:57 PM by cafe750 »
"It's an old motorcycle, the wind is supposed to blow your head around, it's supposed to leak oil, the brakes should suck, and every now and then, it should scare you so bad you piss your pants."



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Offline Philly550K1

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #81 on: March 23, 2009, 10:39:55 AM »
that i see, but it looks like he's rigged a butterfly valve with which to operate it...

Offline Laminar

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2009, 10:48:24 AM »
behold.

this is for entertainment and discussion purposes only. is that a throttle butterfly? would it hold up to exhaust temperatures?

Search eBay for "exhaust cutout" and you'll see plenty of those, both manual and electric. There are quite a few videos on YouTube of electrically-operated exhaust cutouts at work.

Offline NickC

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2009, 11:01:04 AM »
behold.

this is for entertainment and discussion purposes only. is that a throttle butterfly? would it hold up to exhaust temperatures?

 :D :D That's just a throttle body!!! Will not hold up to exhaust temps. Not to mention there is the bypass chamber in the throttle body to allow air for idling. That's awesome!

Offline Laminar

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2009, 12:31:11 PM »
:D :D That's just a throttle body!!! Will not hold up to exhaust temps. Not to mention there is the bypass chamber in the throttle body to allow air for idling. That's awesome!

Do you actually see the IAC bypass, or could the car this throttle body came from use an IAC located somewhere else?

Also, this appears to be on a FWD 4 cylinder car - I'm sure it sounds terrible when opened.

Offline NickC

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2009, 12:59:17 PM »
I've yet to see a vehicle with an IAC not built into the throttle body. ??? ???

Offline chrislib

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2009, 01:43:06 PM »
IAC passage is at 10  o clock
Chris...closet Idlefiddler
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1973 CB750K...CANDY BACCHUS OLIVE

Offline Laminar

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #87 on: March 23, 2009, 02:48:32 PM »
I've yet to see a vehicle with an IAC not built into the throttle body. ??? ???

The Ford Duratec 2.5 has the IAC attached to the upper intake manifold and an air tube going from the intake tract to the IAC, so the throttle body doesn't have anything to do with the idle.

adjutis

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Re: The Strait Pipes Debate
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2009, 08:24:59 PM »
If that is an FI throttle body, it will sooner or later seize up as clearances are too close, carbon will get in and clog it up unless opened every day. Maybe if guy tilts the possibilities by packing the shaft bores with antiseize.......... On IAC all that has to happen is that the bypass passage must bypass (there you go) the butterfly itself. Meaning that not 100% necessary for the system to be on the throttle body. They may cast the entry port on it just to make things a bit simpler but actual IAC valve can be remote. Fdbrat, if you are referring to the stock 550 muffler case, I'm pretty sure it's too gradual angle to work. Will be difficult to get all the guts out and still make it clean looking. Honda uses well welded in baffle plates instead of fiberglass type straight through core. Since mine is a rat bike, I used the outside from one side of a CB750F circa 1980, I had the pipes laying around after going to a Kerker. Right side I believe. The angle about right for a header, there was mucho gutting involved just to get a bare case, then I made up a 1 3/4" core baffle using part of the forward perforated pipe insert welded to proper size end plates. It is removable just like a header baffle. Pretty quiet when baffle in, but very noisy with it out. Don't know if they're still available but MAC exhaust systems used to make a bolt on megaphone that replaced 550F muffler. Pretty high priced though.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 08:27:28 PM by adjutis »