Author Topic: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle  (Read 1051 times)

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Offline Frankenkit

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PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« on: March 20, 2009, 09:16:49 AM »
TwoTired just replied to someone else's woes with the PD carbs, and rather than hijack his thread, I wanted to start my own from the same point.
Quote
The engine wheeze with throttle roll on is usually a lean condition.  Mechanical slide carbs open their slides at the twist of the throttle.  And this causes the carb throat vacuum to drop.  The loss of vacuum drastically reduces the fuel flow from the jets, starving the engine from fuel.  The engine essentially runs out gas.  When the slides are returned to make the opening smaller the vacuum goes back up, fuel flows and the engine starts making power again.
Later 750 carbs (PD style) have an accelerator pump to squirt fuel into the carbs during a throttle twist, significantly improving throttle response for the operator.
Earlier carbs depend on an over rich idle setting, and initial throttle valve rich setting to give smooth acceleration under load.  It will always wheeze when snapping the slides full open, unless the carb setting are way rich, and then you will probably have spark plugs that carbon foul frequently.   When the earlier carbs are set up correctly, the engine should respond predictably with up to one half total sudden throttle twist.
-Two Tired

My 650 is having the same lean thing go on.  The accelerator pump is working fine.  I turn the throttle just a little to raise the rpms, and the engine wheezes a little until the accelerator pump squirts, and like the flick of a switch, the rpms jump up to 2500, 3000 and after that initial wheeze she's smooth as can be.  The slow circuit jets are as clean as they can be (go ahead, ask how I know) and I've noticed a huge improvement as far as riding performance on replacing my air cutoff diaphragms.  I'm just wondering what "the deal" is with the mixture screws.
I know (now) with PD carbs they govern mixture.  Out= more air and fuel, in = less air and fuel.  This really is only like finding a 'sweet spot' where 'Yes, she idles smoothly' or 'Nope, runs like poop.'   

Is there any way (without actually modifying these pressed-in jets) to enrich the idle circuit?  I'm at 2 1/2 turns out right now, and it seems to be a (the?) sweet spot.

The cam chain is a bit loose right now, also, so that may be having an impact on the mixture, inasmuch as cam timing is concerned, but by how much?

I also remember TT (er, I think it was him) saying that when properly set, these bikes should (theoretically) be able to idle all day without fouling the plugs (though overheating would be another matter, of course) so would this lean idle risk damaging the plugs, or would it have them just hot enough to keep the plugs clean?

« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 09:18:55 AM by Kit »
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
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1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
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Offline mlinder

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Re: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 09:29:46 AM »
Yep, it happens just like she says.
Cam chain is a bit loose, but not loose enough to cause any problems... yet. (Marcus and I have talked about your cam chin issue, and we are going ot take care of it).

I feel like half a size up on the idle circuit would make a world of difference. Or having an actual air screw. Can't really do either on these PD's.

I'm looking into a set of jet drills, that may just be the ticket. Any ideas on this are appreciated though.
Oh, and hi, kit :)
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Offline bwaller

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Re: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 09:47:43 AM »
On my "592" with PD's I needed to enlarge the pilots somewhat. I used a set of tapered jet reamers to increase from a 42 to 46. I used a set of gauge pins to determine exactly when the size was right. I can't say this is the absolute best approach since being tapered it's necessary to enter the jet from both ends, but also can't argue with the results, it worked like a charm.

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 10:32:27 AM »
Hi Mark. :D
this "reaming" sounds violent, but whatever works.  It's ok. The bike deserves only the best reaming. ;D
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
2012 CBR250R "Black Betty"
1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
Stuff for sale

Offline mlinder

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Re: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2009, 10:43:44 AM »
Hi Mark. :D
this "reaming" sounds violent, but whatever works.  It's ok. The bike deserves only the best reaming. ;D

I'm just gonna order jet reamers around that size. Would be good to have 'em, anyway. When I get them, we can pull your carbs off, do the work, then synch them again.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2009, 10:49:17 AM »
Kit..I just cleaned my PD acc. pump nozzles as two were not squirting...oh what a difference!!...anyway you say that you have a dead spot before acc. pump 'comes in '...it may need to be adjusted...the throttle cable cam has a gap and tab that operates the acc. pump plunger and needs to be set at a specific gap..it's in your Repair Manual..I'd look at that..good luck.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline Frankenkit

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Re: PD carb Lean Condition at Idle
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2009, 10:52:47 AM »
I measured it to that spec though. sorry, shoulda specified. The specs detail a space the thickness of a piece of paper. Too much space = too late
too little = reduced "inspiratory capacity" ...or the like. I got it so I could juust fit that piece of notebook paper in , two pieces was a bit tight.  I had the carbs unracked and sprayed through every throttle pump orifice until it came through unhindered.  (this is a great way to get carb cleaner in your eyes, too.)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 11:14:19 AM by Kit »
"Moderation in all things - especially moderation. Too much moderation is excessive. The occasional excess is all part of living the moderate life."
2012 CBR250R "Black Betty"
1980 CB650c- (sold) Delilah
1973 CL350- Lola?
Sweet, bubbly, Buddha - Say it ain't so!!!
Stuff for sale