Author Topic: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch  (Read 3635 times)

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Honda_Dan

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Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« on: April 16, 2005, 07:53:42 PM »
I had my 76 Cb750F running great the other day after using this and other internet resources to clean the carbs. http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/MC.html had great step by step instructions for carb cleaning.

Background
My headlight hasn't worked in years, and after tasting victory from successfully cleaning the carbs, I decided to tackle this problem. After reading through these posts, I decided a likely suspect was the starter switch, as this is integrated with the headlight through the disengagement mechanism. The electric starter hasn't worked for a several years either, as it stuck on once and I believe blew out the coil for the electric starter (I was not able to disconnect the fuse before it died). The headlight stopped working about a week before that.

The Problem
At any rate, I took off the two screws underneath the housing for On/Off and starter switch. I wasn't able get very far into the switch as it looks like I will probably need to disconnect the throttle cable in order to pull the housing off. What is the best way get better access to these switches? After I put the switch housing back together, the Bike ceased to get any power, meaning I turn the ignition on, and the blinkers and taillight do not turn on. Obviously the bike doesn't start either.

What is the best way to start trouble shooting this problem? Would some kind of problem in that starter/on-off housing cause the bike to receive no power.


I have already checked:
1) Battery-charge is strong
2) Fuse box-they are all good, although there is some of corrosion lurking around


-Dan

Offline dpen

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2005, 04:51:00 AM »
Go back through the posts on the old sohc4 site. There are several excellent posts by Lloyd Oliver that address your problem specifically.
No hear long time Lloyd-still alive?
Dave

Honda_Dan

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 05:29:17 PM »
Dave,

I just looked through the Greenspun archives and couldn't find any post by Lloyd Oliver.

Is there another place I should be looking?


Dan

Offline dpen

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 04:36:11 AM »
You've got me-I couldn't find any either, heaps of info for you in the archives though.
Go to Google-sohc4 & then find (about the third page) sohc/4Technical Top Level. This has all the old posts going back years.
Another good site to check is "www.hondamotorcycle.net" scroll down and click on the "electrex fault finding chart". Anything I could tell you is here (and probably easier to understand)
Starter buttons get gummed up.
It's easiest to remove the throttle cables, disconnect the connector inside the spider web that is inside the headlight & put the switchblock on the bench.
Spray the insides with something like WD40 then open a beer.
Hit the inside of the switchblock with a bit of compressed air then get out your multi-meter. If you don't have one-buy one-they're invaluable & cheap (from $10 aust-about 50 cents to you yanks). With the meter on resistance (ohms) check that everything works ok.
Then get more beer & settle in to undo & clean up every electrical connector on the bike.
Boring as batsh*t but a good way to ensure that your electrics won't give you more trouble.
A bonus is that you're learning more about your bike and, to me anyway, doing it yourself & knowing it works is vrey satisfying.
Dave
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 07:40:13 AM by dpen »

Honda_Dan

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 09:26:44 AM »
Thanks Dave, I found the electrical fault finding chart, which looks useful, but also supposes that the bike is running. I still can't located the SOHC4 technical archives. It keeps turning back to this sight which has kind of tech library, but that is kind of broad.

Anyways, your advice gave me somewhere to get started. I have a multimeter and plenty of beer and this looks like a great excuse to use them both.

Is there a special trick to disconnecting the throttle cables? I was planning on just using some pliers, and pulling (gently) the ends of the cable from the handle housing.

I'm not sure I have it in me in the next couple of days to pull apart every connection, but when I do is cleaning the connection adequate preventive maintenance. It seems like every wire on this bike is very brittle and should probably be replaced at some point... Maybe a project for this winter.

I completely agree with learning it an fixing it yourself.. So much more satisfying.


Thanks,

Dan

Offline dpen

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2005, 10:22:13 AM »
You'll have adjusters on each cable. Undo the lock nut and screw each adjuster in. Take the tank off and check as I've seen some aftermarket cables that have adjusters further along the cable.
If you can pull the twistgrip off the bars you just turn it around & the cables come off easily. They're easily identifiable but label them so they go back correctly (one is push, one is pull)
Use long nose pliers where ever possible to disconnect wires and try to pull on the metal connectors not the wires. If you have to pull on the wires, do it gently with a slight twisting motion.
If you don't feel up to it all at once, do a bit at a time starting from the fusebox so you don't lose track of where you are.
Be careful inside the headlight-do only one or two wires at a time or label them as you disconnect them. If it's typical Honda it will be a disgusting mess. You will find some wires that don't connect anywhere.Don't worry about them. It's cheaper to make a generic loom than to make a separate one for each country the bikes were sold in.
For a bit of safety, disconnect the earth (negative) battery lead.
Go back to Google & look for that early sohc4 site. I just checked & it's definately there.
A few hours of drudgery for peace of mind later-have fun.
Dave
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 11:19:46 AM by dpen »

Honda_Dan

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2005, 11:57:33 AM »
Thanks a lot Dave!

I'll let you know how it goes. 

Dan :)

Offline Dennis

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2005, 01:56:42 PM »
Dan, it's been a while sinc I removed the right side switch from my 750 but if the cables don't have enough slack to remove them try loosening the adjuster at the carbs.
There are a couple of fairly easy fixes for that headlight/starter problem but you'rew going to want to get running again first.
All I can say is that if there is nothing when you turn the key start checking at the battery and work from there. Good bet is the key switch. I can't think of anything in the right hand switch that could do that.

Honda_Dan

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 01:12:27 PM »
Dennis,

Thanks for the tip. I guess since you don't think the "now power" problem is coming from that switch, I'll just start working through the bike from the battery. I has thought that it must have come from there since it died right after I reassemble that switch housing. But, I guess it could be a coincidence.

What are the easy fixes for the headlight/starter switch issues?. assuming I get the electricity working.


Dani

Offline Dennis

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Re: Wiring Problems around the Run/Off or starter switch
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 11:09:00 PM »
First, get a wiring diagram so that you can see what you are doing. When my '75 750F arrived (an abandoned orphan) it had a few electrical problems and I had no wiring diagram. I spent more time than I would have liked following wires around the bike to figure out how they did electrical things at Honda back in the '70's. Now I was able to do this but I have a little more experience with 12 volt electrical circuits than most people on this board (and there are still some peoply here who make me look like a beginner) but it sure would have been a lot easier to see it on paper.
You can read the wiring diagrams just like a roadmap, you just have to learn the symbols. Also check out the interactive wiring diagram that has been mentioned in other posts, it will give you a better understanding of the systems. Most of the circuits on the '75-'76 F are similar to the earlier models with the most notable difference being the lighting,as with front running lights and no headlight switch.

To answer the question you asked about the headlight, you must understand how the headlight circuit works. The starter button is essentially a spdt (single pole double throw) momentary switch. What that means is that when the key is turned on one wire to the switch is turned on to the center or common terminal as it is called. The other terminals are called normally closed - NC, and normally open - NO. Current is provided to the normally closed terminal at all times except when the switch is pushed, this powers the headlight. When the button is pushed current is interrupted to the headlight and the momentary position switches to the normally open terminal and activates the starter solenoid for as long as you press the button.
Someone on this board has mentioned purchasing a SPDT momentary push button switch from a source like Radio Shack and simply replacing the switch. I do not agree with this method because I feel that due to the size of the switch that it will not be able to handle the amount of current a headlight requires, typically about 5 or more amps.
Another approach is to obtain replacement parts from Honda or from a spare switch to repair your switch, maybe this can be done with a start only button on the earlier bikes, but with the double throw switches unlikely. I beleive that these switches are a problem because Honda didn't get it right, too much current for those little contacts in a very small space and they wear out very quickly.
The way I did mine will outlast any Honda switch and probably the bike.
You will need one small momentary push button switch, just a single throw switch, low current is OK, but be sure that it will fit in the space where the starter button is. I got a cheap Radio Shack switch. You will also need a good SPDT automotive lighting relay. You locate the relay in the wiring enclosure at the top of the downtubes. Unplug the headlight wire to the starter button and connect to the NC terminal of the relay. Unplug the switched power to the starter button and connect to the common terminal and also to one side of the coil in the relay. Connect the starter wire to the NO relay terminal. Mount the switch in place of the starter button. You should have 2 wires from the switch. Bring those to the electrical enclosure. Connect one to the remaining relay coil terminal and the other to a good ground.
Sounds much more complicated than it is, really a very simple relay circuit. It takes the heavy headlight current from the switch to the relay. You are looking at a swithc for less than $1 and the relay should be about $6 or less if you get a good deal.
The relay works exactly the same way the original switch did. NC terminal powers the headlight whenever the key is on, NO terminal works the starter solenoid when you push the button. The PB switch you replaced the starter button with activates the relay by energizing the coil which makes the contacts switch.

As far as your no power problem are you sure about the fuses? Get a test light with a large bulb (you want to load the circuit a little bit) ground the clip, turn the key on and check each side of all 3 (I think) fuses. The light should shine equally bright on either side. Do not rely on visual observations to check fuses. Clean the corrosion from the fuse terminals and any other electrical contact. There may be 2 spare fuses in your fuse box whih are marked as "SP". If the fuses are ok check you key switch for voltage out with the test light in the same manner (clip grounded and probe terminals for power).
Good luck