Topic: It's all Kit's fault - a.k.a. Another 1980 CB650C Resto...

[MickeyX]

The Potter movie was good.  Back to reality...

That little plastic piece snaps in 1/2 easily. Thanks for the offer but I suggest you keep that part since you only have the one spare set. You can't buy them through Honda. It seems you have to get a whole set of carbs. One of the many reasons I'm looking up compatible carbs. Then we will keep these as a spare set for Kit's bike. Well, except for that little part.  I hear the Suzuki GS500 or 550??? may be a good fit. I'm going to start to look it up tonight to see if someone has tred those water before me.

Tires should be here on Tues. - 2 day free shipping. I love it. Eventually, these comstars go on Kit's bike, I get her spoked wheels for Samson. I like spokes. Heh, I just realized the pipes are off the bike so it will be really easy to crank it way up on the cycle jack to work on with or without tires. I can get in there and really clean it up around the sprocket and carriage, redo the brakes while we have the wheels off... I see black steel braided lines in his future. 

Off to see the google wizard about a heart for this beast. The brains come from Kit. The courage comes from my stupidity in starting this in the 1st place. 

[Frankenkit]

it's ok. What could go wrong? Worst case scenario, we decide it's a PITA money pit and it all becomes bike fodder for Delilah the Cannibal.

[coldright]

Stupidity does not equal Courage, your gonna have to settle for something like fearlessness or being intrepid or even tenacious, but I'm afraid stupid is gonna have to go.   

[RM81]

Soos found some replacement carbs that fit well.

Well.....

I thought I would add the new GPZ600 Kawasaki carbs...
 
Went on easily(without airbox on mind you), the only problem I encountered was the cable length.


The throttle cable had to be shortened(used a old but usable one)..I cut 2 inches off(now i wish I had marked my cables, don't know off a '79/'80 650 or a '81/'82
cb650  )


For the (?)ferrule on the end I took some 1/4 inch  stainless steel tubing, turned the OD to .225, drilled a 0.078(2mm) hole 0.200 from one end of the tube, then cut the end with the hole into a piece 0.400 long.

I threaded the cable through the small hole, and hammered a section of allen key into it (lined up the cable hole with one of the flats on the allen wrench),cut to length with a hacksaw, and ground it to the length of the
ferrule I had made.
I also brazed the whole thing together.(for safety)
Looks kinda odd, but it works.
I should have cut another 1/4 off the cable though.... i'm at the limit of adjustment for the cable almost.



Anyways....WHOAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Went for a "ride around the block"... or thats what I told the wife.   
Just got back from a short ride in provo canyon, and a bit of highway/in town riding as well.

I tried MAX acceleration on this short loop, onto and off of I-15, by my house.
With the 650 carbs it hit 55-60 consistently.
With the 750 carbs it would easily get to 70mph.(75 almost 80 if i timed it right for shifting)
Now with the GPZ carbs, i hit a bit over 80, not quite 85.



In comparison to the stockers, i'd take these ANY DAY.
The cb750 carbs I was using, The oldschool look has it's merit. (love that choke linkage!)
The GPZ carbs look like any other CV carb set(of the 80's) pretty much.
Throttle response is better on the GPZ carbs than the 750's.


GPZ jet needles have 6 grooves for the circlip. They can even be changed ON the bike!!
Main jet is 108, didn't check the idle jet size.
The GPZ's  main and idle jets are screw in type. 

I simply gave the passages a good cleaning, cleaned the jets main and idle...  everything inside was good except the float needles.
I robbed another set of carbs laying around for new(er) one.

Hoping to not have to re-jet. They 60mm bore motor and my bike is 61mm bore.
I'm guessing for my altitude i'm probably OK.
Wonder if they will get worse or better MPG than the 750 carbs.

l8r, gotta ride.

[mlinder]

I've checked GS550 garbs against the cb5500 head. Pretty damned close to the same spacing.
I have a set I wanted to try on your 650, Mickey. You can have em, if they fit. Gotta check out how throttle will work with butterfly being between carbs 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 3.

[Frankenkit]

maybe we can pick 'em up Saturday  and I'll throw 'em in a saddlebag or something (and put a cat or something on the otherside to counterweight ) and see how they fit on Samson's head when we get home?

[mlinder]

Yep. I'm gonna want to look at throttle cable routing, though, at some point. No point cleaning and rebuilding them if we can't make em work on the bike because of throttle butterfly position.
Course, you two are resourceful, you can prolly figure that out, too.

[MickeyX]

As I understand it, the '78 550 head was the same, just bored out for the 79 and 80 650. Then the spacing changed on the 81 and 82 with the CV carbs. If it fits a 550, then it should fit but you know how that goes.   I thought about going with a 550 carb and then adjust the jetting but I'd like the throttle response of a CV instead. Thanks for the offer. It couldn't hurt to try it out. I'm curious now too. Thanks.

See ya Sat morning!

I'll check into the Kawi carbs too. I'm trying to visualize how he made the ferrule. 

[Frankenkit]

If Marti was here he'd just weld something to something else.  Us, we have to resort to JB weld and duct tape.  Oh well. No one's perfect.

[mlinder]

Mickey, they gs550 carbs I have are the same as the KZ, just 2mm smaller. You can't fit the CV carbs on there, I dun think, the spaccing is that wide on the CV 650's because it has to be, the top of those bastard carbs is very wide. CV's are lame, anyway.....

[Frankenkit]

I have yet to see the insides of these 650 "diaphragmless cv carbs".  how are they ANY different, really, from piston mechanical slides if they don't have diaphragms?

...consider my mind blown.

[RM81]

As I understand it, the '78 550 head was the same, just bored out for the 79 and 80 650. Then the spacing changed on the 81 and 82 with the CV carbs. If it fits a 550, then it should fit but you know how that goes.  

Interesting.  Have you had any luck finding carb kits for the 80?  The only place I've found them for my 79 is z1 and they're $32 each.  Seems kinda high to me but what do I know.

[manjisann]

Interesting.  Have you had any luck finding carb kits for the 80?  The only place I've found them for my 79 is z1 and they're $32 each.  Seems kinda high to me but what do I know.

Is that with jets and all, or just the orings? To be honest that sounds about right.

Brandon

[RM81]

Pulled this info from the carb FAQ that was submitted by Soos:


1977 or 78 CB550 and PD series carbs
depth (front to back)               -100mm
OD (engine side)                     -32.9mm
OD (airbox side)                      -38.1mm
spacing between #1&2 and 3&4 -75.8mm  (c to c)
spacing between 2&3               -81.1mm

PD50A stock '79cb650 carbs:
Type of carb                  - Mechanical linkage
depth (front to back)       -99.8mm
OD (motor side)              -35.4mm
OD (airbox side)              -45.8mm
#1&2 and 3&4 (c to c)     -76mm
between2&3  (c to c)      -80.9mm

VB44a stock '81 cb650 carbs:
Type of carb                  - CV
depth (front to back)       -122.1mm
OD (motor side)              -39.8mm
OD (airbox side)              -53.8mm
#1&2 and 3&4 (c to c)     -66.3mm
between2&3  (c to c)      -92.7mm

[Frankenkit]

that sounds exactly right, Rusty.  They're hard to find AND bank. :p

[MickeyX]

where did you find them that cheap? The best I've seen so far is around $38 per carb.

[RM81]

where did you find them that cheap? The best I've seen so far is around $38 per carb.

Z1 enterprises.  They're listed specifically for a 79, but I thought the 79 and 80 were the same.

http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=2551

[Frankenkit]

they are the same.  very cool.

[Soos]

where did you find them that cheap? The best I've seen so far is around $38 per carb.

Z1 enterprises.  They're listed specifically for a 79, but I thought the 79 and 80 were the same.

http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=2551

Yeah not too bad... but throw in 4 aircutoff diaphragms, and a accel pump diaphragm, you still looking at over $200 in REBUILD PARTS ALONE!!!

I'll take cb750 carbs over those '79/80(non-CV) cb650 carbs ANY DAY.
A carb rack, and kits for those are WELL under $200... and thats with a bank of carbs.
Not to mention cb750 carbs are a easy replacement for '79/'80 cb650 carbs.



l8r

[MickeyX]

Just a little bump here.... 

Samson has been loaning parts to Delilah and now may be safe for a while so I decided to get around to buying the rebuild kit for the carbs. I looked all over the net for decent pricing or at least anyone who had the correct set. Many try to say the 79/80 and 81/82 are the same and they really are NOT.

I just got 4 sets from motorcyclecarbs.com for $27.95 each. That's about $10 less per kit than anywhere I've been able to find. I've never ordered from them before so I'll just see how long it takes to get them here or if they are on back order. I have to say though, that I already received 3 emails confirming my order and with links and phone #s if I have questions. That is a good start.

I've been compiling a few things on the side, different seats and such to mess with the look of the bike, stuff I can cut up, rearrange, etc.... I want to put different signal lights on and have found some at the salvage place that I will check out in more detail next time. I know I will be upgrading the headlight like Kit did. You can't see #$%* with the original setup.

I also need to replace the brake lines, reservoir, etc. I think I'll go with steel braided lines but does anyone know of a good place to get the reservoir? The brakes are one of the next things to get tore apart to see if we can use anything in them or need a rebuild kit and piston too. We already know it probably has a peanut butter type of fluid in it.

There are a few small things like bolts and nuts, here and there, that are now missing so I'll be grabbing stuff at the hardware store this weekend.

Kit has already experimented with painting the top of tank flat black, while leaving the sides the original color for a flat/gloss look.

[Hush]

"Ah the lid of the coffin slides slightly open at last"!

[MickeyX]

I'll have a wooden stake ready in case it tries to suck my blood along with my $$.  

Kit is thinking she doesn't want to do this project but rather keep the bike for parts for hers since hers are so hard to come by. I dunno. I'd like to get it running so we know the parts will at least be ready and in working order for hers. I know the charging system and stuff is shot, the carbs need rebuilt, the tires (which we have) need done cuz she wants the rims off of Samson, a few cheap wiring things.... all of which would need to be done if she wanted those parts for Delilah anyway. May as well ride it at that point until D needs them, wouldn't ya think? The only things we would be shelling out extra that would maybe wouldn't already be doing to preserve or fix for her bike at this point is the brakes, chain, seat and a head gasket job. Her old R/R still works and can be put on instead of going with the oregon guy. I think we should just put it together, ride it so it doesn't start to degrade and then if she gets to the point where things are failing regularly on D, donate it outright. I think that could give me another 30yrs or so to play with it.  

Now, if I could only convince her of that.  

[HavocTurbo]

*pops up from nowhere*

If the charging system is shot already replacements are going to be time consuming to get install and tehn make sure they are working properly.

Why not just buy a few big rubbermaid containers, take the bike all apart, and wrap all the good parts up in rags and save them for a rainy day for Delilah? You could then have the covers machined or engraved or painted how you like when you like and not have to worry about new gaskets until you have everything in order.

Same goes for engine internal components, or a complete "basic" engine build. Then it would only be a major part swap from broken to new.

Same also would then go for suspension.

Might be far easier than trying to keep two similar bikes running with potentially the same problems.

And of course looking back on all this I am really not helping you with your position am I?...... crap sorry.

[MickeyX]

Nice to see ya back, Havoc.  You ain't helping, no. I get where you're coming from though.

Samson kept getting used as a parts bike so I didn't bother to start him as a project before. At the same time, I've been shot down so many times on smaller sohc4 bikes that I've found on craigslist because I "already have a project sitting in the garage that I haven't gotten to yet". Now, after I've gotten comfortable in D's ability to stay running, I finally ordered some parts for mine, I hear... we should just use that one as parts and forget about it. I wish someone would let me in on what I'm doing from one moment to the next. 

So, does this mean I can actually go looking for a smaller bike that I would like more, now? Well, as soon as I get this one torn apart and put in boxes, that is.

  I think I give up. I may as well just delete this whole build thread. It has become a non-build thread at this point. What good does that do anyone? Does anyone out there need to see pics of how to tear apart a bike and put it in boxes? 

[Hush]

Hi Mickey, how about a compromise seeing as how you already have a daily ride in your Harley.
Why not strip Samson down to the frame and clean him up from there, box the bits you take off so you don't lose them.
Always nice to start a project with a clean frame as a base then you can put a clean engine back in followed by all the other bits, you have all winter to play with it.
If you were looking at something smallers, check out this link, I actually bought some Police gear off the guy that had these bikes, real old fellah getting out of bikes.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=249970378