Author Topic: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!  (Read 16396 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

billybobobrain

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #150 on: April 04, 2009, 02:58:59 PM »
.... Bottom line is the american system does NOT work....

...the stage was set for failure.

You have hit the nail on the head.

billybobobrain

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #151 on: April 04, 2009, 03:03:11 PM »
Quote
Trashing the fact that someone has an opinion is just a show of how ignorant some people are. And yes that is my opinion!

You talk too much BBB  :P

Awe, come on, is that the best you could come up with. I was hoping to be able to argue with someone. ;D

masonryman

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #152 on: April 04, 2009, 03:05:48 PM »
.... Bottom line is the american system does NOT work....

...the stage was set for failure.

You have hit the nail on the head.

I think it started out with good intentions. The biggest problem is, nearly everyone has a price and someone will pay it to get what and it usually is not good for the population as a whole.

Mark

Offline Mekun

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #153 on: April 04, 2009, 03:15:54 PM »
The real problem is neither party does the will of the people and both are corrupt. I voted third party this time. I couldnt bring myself to vote for McLame. The conservative party isnt conservative anymore.

Offline BeSeeingYou

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,913
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #154 on: April 04, 2009, 03:38:48 PM »
And all those quotes are opinions, nothing more. Bottom line is the american system does NOT work. A new method is needed.I would have to contend a combination of systems will work best.

So chris, find all the quotes you want, they are all still opinions. ::)

We need the old system back, not a new one. Any deviation from freedom is a lack of freedom; therefore in order to be free we need to reject non free new ideas. Like, warrantless wire taps, taxation without representation, "spreading the wealth", torture.........the list could go on forever.




I am not sure what you mean by the "old system".  From the 1980's, the 1950's, the 1920's, the 1860's, or way back to 1776?  Even freedom has to have rules and limitations.  Many of our laws are deviations from freedom as they are intended to control peoples behavior.  I don't view the Constitution as a static document.  It has and should change over time as the nation and times change.  After all we were free to have slaves up until 1865.  Women were not allowed to vote until 1920.  Now I am sure you don't want to take us back that far but trying to take the country back to some "golden age" whenever that might have been is not the answer.  The country has always been a work in progress and has changed, adapted, and learned form mistakes in the past.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 10:23:02 PM by srust58 »

billybobobrain

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #155 on: April 04, 2009, 03:44:44 PM »
And all those quotes are opinions, nothing more. Bottom line is the american system does NOT work. A new method is needed.I would have to contend a combination of systems will work best.

So chris, find all the quotes you want, they are all still opinions. ::)

We need the old system back, not a new one. Any deviation from freedom is a lack of freedom; therefore in order to be free we need to reject non free new ideas. Like, warrantless wire taps, taxation without representation, "spreading the wealth", torture.........the list could go on forever.




I am not sure what you mean by the "old system".  From the 1980's, the 1950's, the 1920's, the 1860's, or way back to 1776?  Even freedom has to have rules and limitations.  Many of our laws are deviations from freedom as they are intended to control peoples behavior.  I don't view the Constitution as a static document.  It has and should change over time as the nation and times change.  After all we were free to have slaves up until 1865.  Women were not allowed to vote until the 1920.  Now I am sure you don't want to take us back that far but trying to take the country back to some "golden age" whenever that might have been is not the answer.  The country has always been a work in progress and has changed, adapted, and learned form mistakes in the past.

1776!

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #156 on: April 04, 2009, 05:56:59 PM »
I say pre-civil war but outlaw slavery, women can vote and we don't slaughter and displace all the first nation people. The federal government gained way too much power after winning the civil war. States lost a lot of sovereign rights.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline BeSeeingYou

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,913
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #157 on: April 04, 2009, 11:05:16 PM »
I say pre-civil war but outlaw slavery, women can vote and we don't slaughter and displace all the first nation people. The federal government gained way too much power after winning the civil war. States lost a lot of sovereign rights.


But it takes a strong federal government to do these things like outlawing slavery, giving everyone the right to vote, enacting workers rights and protections against child labor, etc.  It took until the civil rights movement in the early 60's to finally sweep away the last of the Jim Crow laws to really give minorities the real ability to vote in many states.  States lost some of their sovereign rights after the Civil War for good reason and I for one have no illusions about wanting to go back in time. When I hear phrases like states rights it is usually code for one group trying to restrict the rights of another group.  If you want to go back to 1840 but take all the bad stuff away then you really are not going back to 1840.  You can't take all the "bad stuff" away without going through the growth and learning process that got us to where we are now as a country.  I would say we are now as a people, all of us, not just certain groups, more free than any other time in our history.  There is still room for improvement and there always will be but you have to look forward not backward.

I would say the it was not until WWII that the federal government really expanded and an argument can be made that maybe it has gotten too big in some areas.  To go back to an era of a weak federal government and strong state government no thanks.  Been there, done that, didn't turn out so good.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 11:29:12 PM by srust58 »

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #158 on: April 05, 2009, 12:09:46 AM »
Or is it just the illusion of freedom? How free are we here?
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #159 on: April 05, 2009, 12:58:21 AM »
I would say we are now as a people, all of us, not just certain groups, more free than any other time in our history. 

I don't see how you can say that.  We have more laws today that restrict our freedom than at any other time in our history.  And, a thousand new ones are added every year.  I'd bet none of us know what even half of the laws say, or how they effect us.  Why aren't these seen as further restrictions on our freedom?

We pay more taxes now than at any other time in our history.  Is not economic freedom a part of personal freedom?
We only have selected "freedoms" that our taxes pay for.  And, those very taxes pay someone else to further restrict our freedoms, (and increase our taxes).

The first Federal income tax was imposed (under Article I, section 8, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution) during the Civil War, then again in the 1890s, and again after the Sixteenth Amendment was ratified in 1913.

The Revenue Act of 1861, was a flat rate tax of 3% on annual income above $800.
The Sixteenth Amendment placed a minimum of 1% on all and an additional 1% to 6% for 7 income brackets.
       ref:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913

* The Federal government's tax burden rose to 6.8 percent of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) by 1940.
* Between 1986 and 1990 the Federal tax burden rose as a share of GDP from 17.5 to 18 percent.
* By 2000, Federal taxes as a share of GDP reached a postwar high of 20.8 percent.

In a little over 100 years the tax rate went from about 3% to 20%.  And now, of course, the Government is saying higher taxes are needed in the future.

Don't forget to add the state taxes, which add 6.47% (average among all states, and varies between 4% an 12% extremes) of personal incomes above what the Feds take.
These have an increase over time history, as well, with media reports of planned increases, either sales tax, income tax, or excise taxes

Today, you are "free" to give 30-40% of your work week to the government (assuming you are somewhere in the middle class). That's one and a half days work you give the government each week.  With the government now giving away money to banks, where do you think that money is going to come from?  Its the all the "free" taxpayers who will be working an extra half day a week for their government (or the banking institutions indirectly).

Care to guess what the next 100 years will bring?

Place these tax data points on a graph, connect the dots and draw a projection line into the future.  How many years before the tax rate equals 100%?

When will we be "free" to work entirely for someone else's gain?




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Inigo Montoya

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,855
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #160 on: April 05, 2009, 08:14:06 AM »
Quote
Are you going to blame the whole SOHC4 engine because you screwed with the carbs, thinking you knew what you were doing, and now it does not run?

Any system will not work if you screw with any part of it.  A system requires balance.  When the government started pressuring the banks to lend to those who could not afford a house, back at the end of Clinton's term and the beginning of Bush's, the system was unbalanced and the stage was set for failure.

THAT is exactly what I am saying. You will ALWAYS have someone that wants to mess with the system.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #161 on: April 05, 2009, 09:41:18 AM »


The first Federal income tax was imposed (under Article I, section 8, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution) during the Civil War, then again in the 1890s, and again after the Sixteenth Amendment was ratified in 1913.


[/quote]

1913... Isn't that when that wonderful organization known as the Federal Reserve (which is neither federal or reserved) came into being? Strange coincidence, or maybe not. Good old, unconstitutional federal income tax. Why stop there? Give power to an organization that does not constitutionally have the power to print money and give value to it, that makes great sense; well, to the bankers I'm sure it does.

But the people will accept these minor, illegal things as long as they have a car in each garage and a chicken in every pot, right? Oops, I guess the analogy now is an Ipod in every pocket and a plasma TV in every room!

"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #162 on: April 05, 2009, 10:04:12 AM »
How is the federal income tax unconstitutional if it was ratified by 42 of 48 states as the 16th Amendment to the Constitution?
CB750K4

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #163 on: April 05, 2009, 02:36:42 PM »
Just because congress passes an amendment and ratifies with a 3/4 or more majority does not make it constitutional. The supreme court time after time has upheld that the 16th amendment does not give congress any more tax powers than it had before the amendment.

Don't take my word for it though, Aaron Russo does a better job of explaining it in this movie he made, America Freedom to Fascism. No, he's not a tinfoil hat wearing government hater, I think he is a patriot that cares about the direction this country is heading towards. Watch this movie and then tell me what you think about the 16th amendment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=freedom+to+fascism&pr=goog-sl
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 02:44:36 PM by Dukiedook »
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #164 on: April 05, 2009, 02:57:12 PM »
Just because congress passes an amendment and ratifies with a 3/4 or more majority does not make it constitutional.

Actually, yes it does. Article 5 in the Constitution defines the ways in which the government can amend the Constitution:

Quote
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress

Are you suggesting that the Constitution itself should be deemed unconstitutional?  Madness!  ;D
CB750K4

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #165 on: April 05, 2009, 03:04:47 PM »
Just because congress passes an amendment and ratifies with a 3/4 or more majority does not make it constitutional. The supreme court time after time has upheld that the 16th amendment does not give congress any more tax powers than it had before the amendment.

Don't take my word for it though, Aaron Russo does a better job of explaining it in this movie he made, America Freedom to Fascism. No, he's not a tinfoil hat wearing government hater, I think he is a patriot that cares about the direction this country is heading towards. Watch this movie and then tell me what you think about the 16th amendment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=freedom+to+fascism&pr=goog-sl


Dude you are wrong, do not mean to impolite, but your wrong.  I did not watch your link, but if this is what it taught you, you're both wrong.



Just saying

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #166 on: April 05, 2009, 03:05:07 PM »
Actually, no it (congress) doesn't, they just write laws. The supreme court determines constitutionality. And they have ruled time after time that the 16th amendment does not give congress any new taxation powers before the amendment. If you watch the movie, the tax lawyers and ex IRS people point that out quite clearly.

Show me the law on the books that requires you to pay federal income tax, I double-dog dare you.

"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #167 on: April 05, 2009, 03:07:53 PM »
Ok Mark, since you have not watched the movie and you seem to be a source of information on this subject, please enlighten the masses here.

Just sayin'
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #168 on: April 05, 2009, 03:24:05 PM »
(my posts have disapeared? the ASS RAPE
FAIRY ?)

Don't know how to help you Dude, goggle Amendment, Google Law, to different things.   

The Supreme Court is powerless to change an Amendment, they can decide A Law does not mean what you personally believe it does, but they cannot change the fact that all Branches of US government must take it into account when they perform their duties.


Seriously. your posts seem to indicate you don't know what the difference is.



Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #169 on: April 05, 2009, 03:33:38 PM »
Lemme get this straight, you are saying that the Supreme Court of the United States of America does not have the power to determine whether a law or amendment is constitutional or not? There clearly are no checks and balances of federal government by your definition of the powers of the Supreme Court.

I guess they really are just a bunch of powerless, old people in funny looking robes and hats.
 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:43:32 PM by Dukiedook »
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline Inigo Montoya

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,855
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #170 on: April 05, 2009, 03:37:47 PM »
I sometimes wonder if the courts do not over step, but when congress and the president do, I suppose they must.

Nothing but a big mess these days.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #171 on: April 05, 2009, 03:40:50 PM »
I sometimes wonder if the courts do not over step, but when congress and the president do, I suppose they must.

Nothing but a big mess these days.

With We the people left holding the proverbial bag of flaming dog doo...
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #172 on: April 05, 2009, 03:42:45 PM »
Lemme get this straight, you are saying that the Supreme Court of the United States of America does not have the power to determine the whether a law or amendment is constitutional or not? There clearly are no checks and balances of federal government by your definition of the powers of the Supreme Court.

I guess they really are just a bunch of powerless, old people in funny looking robes and hats.
 

Again, a Law is different then an Amendment.

If they pass a Law that nothing stupid can be posted on the internet  I can be arrested for saying the gravity is really just a misinterpretation of the fact that the Earth Sucks.

The courts can dictate that I must be released because the first amendment states that can say what I please as long as what I say does not cause real harm to someone else.

If they pasS an Amendment that I must be arrested for violating the Law of Gravity, The Courts can't prevent me from spending time with the ASS RAPE FAIRIES.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #173 on: April 05, 2009, 03:49:51 PM »
Yes, they can.

And what is with you and ASS RAPE FAIRIES? Is this some fetish you wish to live out, rape fantasies or something? With the proper amount of money paid up front we (not me, you and other people) can take care of your fetish needs in a safe, discreet way I'm sure.


"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!
« Reply #174 on: April 05, 2009, 03:56:45 PM »
So

You take this personally...Interesting.

OK

If you could tell me that you understand the difference between a Law and a Amendment, you could see that i am applying an amusing phrase to different situations.

Just saying...


i use that one a lot too.  And BTW

*The Supreme Court, no US court can in fact overrule an US Constitutional Amendment, this is the "check" on the **power of the Supreme Court.


*added 

** word changed



 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 04:08:57 PM by Markcb750 »