Author Topic: E85 conversion  (Read 2512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jygge

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Hey! Ho!
E85 conversion
« on: April 05, 2009, 11:11:18 AM »
I tried searching the forum but didn't get any results. This would be an interesting topic to discuss on. Has anyone tried to run their bike on E85 fuel? Or if anyone knows about this subject, please do share your wisdom with us. What do you have to do to your engine to be able to run on this type of fuel?

Offline Old Scrambler

  • My CB750K3 has been in 39 States & 5 Provinces
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,807
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 12:12:22 PM »
I can get you started but I am not the final answer.  You will need an engineer.......E85 is alcohol with a little gasoline in it to keep us sober and make the fuel easier to handle in tankers and at the dispenser.  Your motor needs modern gaskets, valves, valve seats, throttle-bodies or injectors, and a few other special metals to handle this stuff over many miles.  The fuel is less efficient so gas mileage will suffer by about 15% to 30%. Power will be no better, but possibly less if not in a high state of tune.  Standard or lower compression may help.  Once your motor is tuned for E85 your stuck unless you have an oxygen sensor to re-calibrate the air-fuel mixture as your driving.  It takes 2 or more tanks to reset in the current flex-fuel vehicles.

E85 is not price competitive but may be when we get the next generation of distillery/refinery systems (celulose) that will not rely on corn for feedstock.     
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
'63 CL72 Project(s)
'66 CL77 Red
'67 Triumph T100C
'73 750K3 Owned since New
'77 750F2 Cafe Project
2020 ROYAL ENFIELD Himalayan

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

  • Really feeling like an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,350
  • WARNING: Objects in mirror appear to be LOSING!
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 12:23:10 PM »
Might have better luck doing a HICE conversion (Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine).  All that would take is to meter gaseous hydrogen into the air stream instead of emulsified gasoline.  Maybe through the vacuum ports.  Little to no modification to the stock parts, just new plumbing for the hydrogen.  The advantage is you could easily turn off the hydrogen and fill your gas tank back up for normal operation. 

Not that I've been thinking of this much!  ;D
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
Sure.
Is it hard?
Not if you have the right attitudes. It’s having the right attitudes that’s hard.

Offline Jygge

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Hey! Ho!
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 12:41:07 PM »
What's the octane level of E85? I'm guessing it doesn't produce as much heat as normal gasoline would. I'm just interested cause E85 is now making it's way here in Finland.  ::)

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,840
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2009, 12:52:13 PM »
Drag racers are converting with some success. You need about 50% more fuel delivery which could mean bigger fuel lines and needles, jets, air bleeds, etc  not an easy swap. as mentioned, then you are commited to E85 only. Some are using E98 and then mixing with no lead race gas to 85%. It does not like to mix with leaded fuels for some reason. I got a contaminated batch of race gas [with methanol] two years ago and until I figured out the problem I was able to re-jet and adjust to it. I don't know what the ratio was  though. There is info on the net for the adventerous. One advantage is running cooler too.
I don't know octane but I have been told not to go over 10 to 1 compression.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline cb350twin

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 711
    • http://mail.google.com/a/sohc4.net/
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 10:39:47 PM »
Quote
What's the octane level of E85? I'm guessing it doesn't produce as much heat as normal gasoline would. I'm just interested cause E85 is now making it's way here in Finland.

I think it's around 110 or so.. Indy car began using it and  the performance of the cars is not as great and they have to pit and fill up twice as much and it dosn't smell as cool.  ;)
1975 CB 750 K5
1972 CB 350 Twin K4
1972 CB 500 Four K1

Offline Inigo Montoya

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,855
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 06:48:31 AM »
I think the main advantage of alcohol is cooler burning and cleaner burning. You wont have water in your lines!  :D

Offline JLeather

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 775
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 07:07:47 AM »
I ran a truck on it for a while.  I've got a couple points to make on it, and I disagree with some of what's been said so far.

For starters, E85 attacks old rubber.  You'd need to replace your lines and seals in the petcock with neoprene or they'll get soft and leak.  Fortunately the carbs don't have much rubber in them, but the fuel lines and the O-rings where the lines enter the carbs are a must-do.

Secondly, E85 (and alcohol in general) is a higher octane rating than gasoline.  I think it's pushing 106ish (nearly that of CAM2).  You can get away with higher compression (much higher, like 12:1 if need be) without detonation.  That's why some drag racers run it.  It also burns cooler and slower, so you need to advance the timing.  If properly tuned you can extract more hp out of an engine running E85 with the higher-compression and the advanced timing.  This will roughly make up for the disadvantage of E85 having less energy per unit volume.  i.e. preoperly set up the actual fuel mileage change is negligible, but you have to be prepared to fully convert the motor.  If you just rejet to run E85 you will lose around 20% of your fuel mileage.  If you do the full conversion and raise the compression and alter the timing and all you are then stuck running E85 (but you've got more hp).

E85 doesn't hurt valves or valve seats, so you're fine there, and it isn't a danger to any of the engine gaskets unless you leak a bunch of it into the crankcase or something.  It's just the fuel system gaskets and hoses that are in danger.

You don't need 50% more fuel delivery.  I opened the jets of the carb up around 12%-15% on my truck before it was where I wanted it, and then retuned the screws as necessary.  That's roughly equal to the reduction in energy per volume, so it makes sense you'd need that much mroe fuel.  I ran the timing way advanced, like 25*+ at idle, before I got any knocking and this was an old old truck ('66 Chevy).  I did lose some mileage, though, because I did not want to go through the additional money/effort to increase the compression ratio.

Another minor disadvantage is that alcohol attracts water.  Dry-gas does this to get water out of your gas tank, but in a tank mostly full of alcohol you'll find that it needs to be drained if it's gonna be sitting for a while or else it will gather a lot of moisture.

In the end, the only reason I'd convert another vehicle to E85 is for a high-horsepower application.  The advantage of the timing advance and copmpression increase, as well as the fact that it runs much cooler, makes for a great performance motor.  I think it isn't worth the expense, either for modifications or fuel costs, to convert just a daily-driver to it.  lack of availability means you can get stuck somewhere if you don't plan your trips right, and you will lose some mileage unless you tune it extremely well, including changing sprockets to take advantage of the higher horsepower.

Also, the reason it's E85 and not 100% alcohol is because while alcohol is a higher octane rating, if pretty much refuses to evaporate below like 50 degrees.  To start a vehicle on straight alcohol on a cold day requires fuel pre-heating.  The gasoline percentage in E85 is meant to make sure the fuel is still capable of igniting at lower temperatures, and once the engine is even slightly warm (a few seconds after starting) the warmth of the engine will keep the alcohol evaporating.  This is another disadvantage in something like a CB750, or especially a bike that's kick-start only, because E85 engines are very cold natured even on mild days, and in the winter forget about it.

Offline JLeather

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 775
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 07:21:15 AM »
As an interesting side-note, Saab came up with a really interesting/elegant solution to a flex-fuel motor.  Saab ran a turbo-charged motor in one of their sporty convertible models.  When the car senses that it's running on E85 it increases the boost-pressure from the turbo (effectively raising the compression ratio) and advances the timing.  It produces significantly more horsepower when running on E85 and the mileage difference is only about 1 mpg (essentially unnoticable).  However, building an engine like that is quite expensive.  Most flex-fuel vehicles built in America only alter the timing and fuel curves to run on E85 because they have no way to change the compression ratio.  This is why they lose several mpg when running on E85 vs gasoline, and they only make about the same horsepower.

Offline Inigo Montoya

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,855
Re: E85 conversion
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 07:38:28 AM »
Very concise J, I had heard much of what you said from a few others but never saw it myself.