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Can this airplane lift off?

yes
no

Author Topic: Can this airplane lift off?  (Read 31128 times)

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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #300 on: April 07, 2009, 06:09:25 PM »
In the original scenario, there was no need to consider infinite conveyor speed as it would never occur.

In the revised scenario, infinite speed is assumed.

If we're going to start changing the scenario by adding more and more vairables (infinite speed, frictionless bearings) than the whole thread becomes even more pointless than it was to begin with.


That's been my point all along.




Let's just go ahead and presume the existance of magical fairies why will use psionic powers to keep the wheel bearings from exploding.  After all, what do you suppose is holding the bearings in the conveyor together?

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masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #301 on: April 07, 2009, 06:16:06 PM »
OMG I never even questioned the the technology in the conveyor belt. We should use that stuff in our next plane. on second thought, screw the plane you could build a bad ass bike with that stuff

masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #302 on: April 07, 2009, 06:18:04 PM »
mlinder ?

Markcb750

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #303 on: April 07, 2009, 06:19:03 PM »
Dudes, I spent years before, during & after college reading physics books getting what I thought is a fair interpretation on the nature of what "is"  ...I think if I continue to read this thread my ears will start to bleed.





Seriously WTF?


Infinity, as a theoretical concept  provides an interesting foundation to our understanding of the Universe. Metaphysically it provides me with a foundation to my understanding as to why we are here, but what infinity has to do with the thought problem presented here is escaping me.  



masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #304 on: April 07, 2009, 06:22:57 PM »
infinity; is there really such a thing, every thing has a limit and when it finds it, it ether stops or explodes.


nothing last or goes forever

 Markcb750
That was my point 20 post ago

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #305 on: April 07, 2009, 06:38:09 PM »
Because this is important to the understanding of where infinity comes from, I'm going to label it in a bold font.

How the runaway-conveyor scenario works:

Setup 1:
Imagine the conveyor adjusts itself to the speed of the plane relative to the ground.  This is the scenario where the wheels rotate at twice their normal speed.

Setup 2:
Imagine the conveyor adjusts itself to the speed mentioned above in setup 1 plus the reading on the plane's speedometer (which measures the speed relative to the conveyor itself).  In this case, the conveyor quickly speeds up to infinity.


Anyway, that's where infinity comes from.

Nope, not part of the original problem statement.   I believe you are injecting "info" simply to further the thread life.
Quote
There is an airplane on a runway. The runway is like a conveyor belt, and can detect the speed of the wheels of the airplane. When the runway senses the wheels moving, the runway will match the speed of the airplane's wheels, but in the opposite direction.

This specifies a theoretical gain by the speed sensor of exactly one with no reference to the airplane's relative ground speed.  (Ground speed has no effect on air speed, which is what makes an airplane fly.  Although encounters with the ground can preclude further flight, with or without injuries.)  Anyway, there is no multiplication effect inherent in the problem statements.  Conveyor speed response is stipulated as instantaneous. And the converor is presumably there in the first place, to insulate the airplane from the ground.  There are no drag coefficients stated either.  The whole exercise is theoretical.  And, under these theoretical stipulations, infinite speed of the conveyor is only achieved when the plane wheels reach infinite speeds.  Pretty sure take off would occur before that speed, which would preclude infinite speed all by itself.  Further, what's the point of using an airplane in the problem statement if it needs infinite speed to achieve flight?  Anyway, infinite speed is a theoretical concept, which only occurs in unproven theory.

Since the constructs of the problem are unreal.  One can make the argument that the reasoning needed for solving an unreal problem must also be unreal.  (Who can argue that this thread is anything but unreal?)  But, with that logic, unrealistic speeds of infinity are acceptable, as well as an airplane the requires those speeds for flight.  My assumption is that this thread continues due to some endorphin producing effect from mental masterbation.

I think the marine corps uses the phrase ClusterF*ck.


Oh Oh Oh Oh Aaaahhhh


By the way here is the airplane refered to in this thread:

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Markcb750

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #306 on: April 07, 2009, 06:41:07 PM »
infinity; is there really such a thing, every thing has a limit and when it finds it, it ether stops or explodes.


nothing last or goes forever

 Markcb750
That was my point 20 post ago

Well maybe this thread...

Offline mlinder

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #307 on: April 07, 2009, 06:41:49 PM »
So what's the question, now? It keeps changing, as do parameters.

Can the conveyor belt do ∞? If not, can the conveyor belt match AIR speed plus wheel speed?
Are the bearings frictionless? If not, how much friction?
Is the aircraft a VTOL?
DOES THE PLANE EVER REACH ANY AIR SPEED?
We need to know the above to answer the question "can it take off?"
If not, it doesn't go anywhere. Doesn't matter what the hell the ground speed is.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 06:47:13 PM by mlinder »
No.


masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #308 on: April 07, 2009, 06:45:07 PM »
I took the original problem as;

Can the trust of the engine produce enough airflow over the wings to produce enough lift for the plane to life with out forward motion.

Offline mlinder

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #309 on: April 07, 2009, 06:46:24 PM »
I took the original problem as;

Can the trust of the engine produce enough airflow over the wings to produce enough lift for the plane to life with out forward motion.

Most planes cannot, no.
No.


masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #310 on: April 07, 2009, 06:54:37 PM »
I took the original problem as;

Can the trust of the engine produce enough airflow over the wings to produce enough lift for the plane to life with out forward motion.

Most planes cannot, no.

OK

I have been thinking, as most people on here, in a practical application and not in theory. in practical application there in no such thing as infinity.

it's been fun but I'm done

Offline mlinder

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #311 on: April 07, 2009, 07:01:00 PM »
We don't know that.
The simple fact that we can grasp the notion of the infinite suggests it exists.
The fact that 1/3rd of 10 has an infinite fraction shows us that it does, indeed, exist.
No.


Offline mlinder

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #312 on: April 07, 2009, 07:03:13 PM »
OMG I never even questioned the the technology in the conveyor belt. We should use that stuff in our next plane. on second thought, screw the plane you could build a bad ass bike with that stuff

#$%* that, who needs a plane or a motorcycle when you have a conveyor belt that moves infinitely fast?
Just build em between major cities, and between all the continents.
No.


Offline seaweb11

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #313 on: April 07, 2009, 07:06:16 PM »
 ;D

masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #314 on: April 07, 2009, 07:15:42 PM »
I can't stay away ???

If you take a cube, it is 10 cu.ft and cut in to 3 3rd's do the remnants of the pieces go on for ever?

Offline mlinder

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #315 on: April 07, 2009, 07:18:36 PM »
I can't stay away ???

If you take a cube, it is 10 cu.ft and cut in to 3 3rd's do the remnants of the pieces go on for ever?
The measurement does, yes.
No.


masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #316 on: April 07, 2009, 07:31:59 PM »
I know what it does on paper but when I cut a block in thirds I get 3 pieces of the size I cut and that's all I get

Offline mlinder

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #317 on: April 07, 2009, 07:33:13 PM »
But each piece, assuming it's been cut perfectly, has an infinite fraction that describes it's size in relation to the original item.
No.


Offline mystic_1

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #318 on: April 07, 2009, 07:41:23 PM »
Is it a frictionless cube?


mystic_1
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masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #319 on: April 07, 2009, 07:47:02 PM »
I know what you are saying, and part of the point I am making is the differant world we all live in. Tomorrow I will at some point heave a 64 lb 12" concrete block up on to the table of a 20" masonry saw making a noise you can only imagine and cut is hunk and when I cut it no bricklayer on the job would complain if it is +/- 1/4" that is .25"

My brother is a ma chinest and when we get together to build or fix something he starts talking 10ths and to him a 10th is.0001 of which I could not care less about. you see where I am going with the practical application stuff

masonryman

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #320 on: April 07, 2009, 08:03:02 PM »
But each piece, assuming it's been cut perfectly, has an infinite fraction that describes it's size in relation to the original item.
What about the saw kerf? this surly knock it off it's track to infinity and If you count the particle's you would probable be in the millions of pcs

Offline bunghole

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #321 on: April 07, 2009, 08:41:06 PM »
If you walk halfway to a wall....then walk another half way to the wall...and on and on, you will never reach the wall.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #322 on: April 07, 2009, 11:08:19 PM »
I took the original problem as;

Can the trust of the engine produce enough airflow over the wings to produce enough lift for the plane to life with out forward motion.


No, it can't.  But that's not what the original question is asking.  The question simply asks, "can the plane take off?", and the answer is "yes", because the plane will still move forward through the air regardless of what the conveyor belt runway beneath it is doing.  It will take off normally, just like it would if it were on a normal runway.  The only difference being that its wheels would be spinning faster than they normally would. 

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #323 on: April 07, 2009, 11:20:48 PM »
Quote
No, it can't.  But that's not what the original question is asking.  The question simply asks, "can the plane take off?", and the answer is "yes", because the plane will still move forward through the air regardless of what the conveyor belt runway beneath it is doing.  It will take off normally, just like it would if it were on a normal runway.  The only difference being that its wheels would be spinning faster than they normally would.

And that folks is all there is to it....

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Re: Can this airplane lift off?
« Reply #324 on: April 08, 2009, 03:37:13 AM »
Quote
No, it can't.  But that's not what the original question is asking.  The question simply asks, "can the plane take off?", and the answer is "yes", because the plane will still move forward through the air regardless of what the conveyor belt runway beneath it is doing.  It will take off normally, just like it would if it were on a normal runway.  The only difference being that its wheels would be spinning faster than they normally would.

And that folks is all there is to it....

Mick


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