Topic: On American Decency

[eldar]

Well lets see, I went to college and had some grants. It was a 2 year thing and my debt is still over 12,000. The govt DID NOT pay ANY of my interest. To say that is very misleading as every state will work it differently. Also, some loans have interest and some do not. NY must have cheap, I.E. crappy schools to only charge 2000 a month for everything or what sounds like everything. Here in ND, the average school is about 3-4000 a semester. The private schools are up to $6000 a semester.  Quite a bit more than 2000.
Also, schools CAN deny you access if your scores do not meet the requirements or if you have poor school records but then maybe NY is different and that is why it seems like half the people there are starving art students.

[BobbyR]

Well let's see unless you are an amazing Student you cannot get into a State School since they are lower cost they are as selective a an Ivy League. The Community Colleges in NYC can be good or really bad.

 OK so you have to send your kid to a private College. Tuition, room, fees, etc. come to about $40K a year which come out of my pocket. I do get a tax deduction for that. If you make a decent living you get to deduct $450.00 from your Federal. Now do I saddle my kid with starting his adult life with $160,000 debt at 8.5% interest, or do I suck it up. I suck it up.

A lot of kids are nudged into the Military out of need. My son's friend is a Recruiter and they hit the High Schools in the poorest areas. No shame in serving your Country, it is sometimes a shame how you Country serves you.

now where you live, but CUNY colleges have an open admissions policy.  In the clearest terms, they can't deny anyone access.  I happen to know that SUNY isn't particularly exclusive (with the exception of some key programs), and it is very inexpensive as well (but not as cheap as CUNY).  In fact, most private colleges are harder to get into than SUNY.  There's no need to attend a private college in NY unless you are looking for prestige.  Graduate programs are not open admissions in CUNY, either.  Basically CUNY does not have the reputation of Columbia U, but certain programs are quite excellent.  Baruch's Zicklin School of Business has been rated the best value in MBAs several times in recent years.  It is basically an ivy league quality program, including the reputation, at a CUNY school, at a CUNY price.  Yes, it is hard to get in.

You get out of your education what you put in, just like anything else.

Ed, I am not sure what timeframe you are talking about. The CUNY schools were top notch until they went open enrollment, so except for Baruch and a few others, they have dumbed down a lot. The SUNY Schools are flooded with applicants since the cost is lower and people who would have opted for a white shoe school are going to SUNY. I went to SUNY Purchase the year it opened for my post grad, it was very affordable. Now you better be top 10% from a good High School or your app goes into the round file. I am hoping that my kid does well enough at his present School to transfer into one of the SUNY Schools. Dude, being middle class in America is like gettting your Colon checked every week.

[edbikerii]

Ed, I am not sure what timeframe you are talking about. The CUNY schools were top notch until they went open enrollment, so except for Baruch and a few others, they have dumbed down a lot. The SUNY Schools are flooded with applicants since the cost is lower and people who would have opted for a white shoe school are going to SUNY. I went to SUNY Purchase the year it opened for my post grad, it was very affordable. Now you better be top 10% from a good High School or your app goes into the round file. I am hoping that my kid does well enough at his present School to transfer into one of the SUNY Schools. Dude, being middle class in America is like gettting your Colon checked every week.

I agree, open enrollment was the worst thing CUNY could have done, but my point is that anybody from NYS can attend and pay a ridiculously low tuition to get a nationally accredited college education.  In fact, even out of state students can attend for a rate that is relatively low.  That is the definition of "universal education".

Another factor, though, is that in the more competitive CUNY programs like engineering, architecture, computer science, nursing, accounting, etc., there is a 'weeding out' process where the early classes are quite difficult and the lazy students either drop out or change majors quickly.  Also, CUNY doesn't have the high graduation rate that most other schools have, because open enrollment doesn't guarantee that those who have enrolled can keep up a 2.0.  In addition, those with really good GPAs have access to many other programs that are more prestigious, and often tied to corporations or programs at ivy league schools.  So again, you CAN get out of it what you put in.

Granted, I graduated a while back, so I may not be current with respect to SUNY admissions.  Personally, I think it should be hard to get in.  If the education is good (which I consider many SUNY programs to be), and cheap, then it should be hard to get in.  Otherwise, you have the same open enrollment problems that CUNY has.

I guess I've gotten pretty far off the point of this, which was that there are plenty of opportunities for people to pursue other than the military.  If they choose to sign up, then good for them, I'm proud of them.  Perhaps they don't wish to attend college (at least not right away).  Everyone certainly has the opportunity to attend college if they wish to.  Maybe not Harvard, but nobody in this country is denied an education if they want it and are willing to work a little for it.  I've had many friends who WANTED to join the military rather than going to college.  Many of them went to college on the GI bill after they got out.  Nobody is forcing anybody to join the military, and there are plenty of opportunities in the USA for people who are willing to take advantage of them.

[edbikerii]

Well lets see, I went to college and had some grants. It was a 2 year thing and my debt is still over 12,000. The govt DID NOT pay ANY of my interest. To say that is very misleading as every state will work it differently. Also, some loans have interest and some do not. NY must have cheap, I.E. crappy schools to only charge 2000 a month for everything or what sounds like everything. Here in ND, the average school is about 3-4000 a semester. The private schools are up to $6000 a semester.  Quite a bit more than 2000.
Also, schools CAN deny you access if your scores do not meet the requirements or if you have poor school records but then maybe NY is different and that is why it seems like half the people there are starving art students.

FACT:  Federally guaranteed student loans have their interest paid by the federal government as long as you are enrolled in an accredited full-time program.  When you start paying it back the interest begins for you.  This is not a subject for debate, it is a fact.

I've already addressed your other statements.

[Roach Carver]

I consolidated about 2/3 of my loans and my interest rate is about 2.5 percent. I will borrow money all day long at that rate ( and pay it back very, very slowly).

[eldar]

FACT: My federal UN subsidized stafford loan interest was NOT paid by the feds nor is it for anyone I know. If you are going to claim your interest was paid, you better put on what type of loan you had as there are many.  I was in school just a couple years ago and it was full time and I went year round.

As for my other points, I fail to see where you covered them. Base line is that states run their colleges and universities different. Private schools are just that, and thus set their own regulations.

[edbikerii]

FACT: My federal UN subsidized stafford loan interest was NOT paid by the feds nor is it for anyone I know. If you are going to claim your interest was paid, you better put on what type of loan you had as there are many.  I was in school just a couple years ago and it was full time and I went year round.

As for my other points, I fail to see where you covered them. Base line is that states run their colleges and universities different. Private schools are just that, and thus set their own regulations.

So, you didn't get the right loan.  That's your problem.  http://www.scholarships-ar-us.org/loans/guaranteed.htm

We are talking about poor people here, so your points about private school are irrelevant.  Being out of state is also irrelevant.  Whatever state you live in has insanely cheap public colleges, just like NY, if not cheaper.  Do your state's research yourself, I've done mine.  Either way, even out of state students can attend CUNY at a still ridiculously low cost, while they establish residency.  Lots of non-Americans go to CUNY because it is cheap and they can get their student visas, etc.

In short, there are no reasons for not going to college if you want to, no matter how poor you are in the USA.  So there's one less thing to whine about.

I'm done.

[BobbyR]

FACT: My federal UN subsidized stafford loan interest was NOT paid by the feds nor is it for anyone I know. If you are going to claim your interest was paid, you better put on what type of loan you had as there are many.  I was in school just a couple years ago and it was full time and I went year round.

As for my other points, I fail to see where you covered them. Base line is that states run their colleges and universities different. Private schools are just that, and thus set their own regulations.

So, you didn't get the right loan.  That's your problem.  http://www.scholarships-ar-us.org/loans/guaranteed.htm

We are talking about poor people here, so your points about private school are irrelevant.  Being out of state is also irrelevant.  Whatever state you live in has insanely cheap public colleges, just like NY, if not cheaper.  Do your state's research yourself, I've done mine.  Either way, even out of state students can attend CUNY at a still ridiculously low cost, while they establish residency.  Lots of non-Americans go to CUNY because it is cheap and they can get their student visas, etc.

In short, there are no reasons for not going to college if you want to, no matter how poor you are in the USA.  So there's one less thing to whine about.

I'm done.

Ed, you are living in the 70's. Nice bike by the way. There is a big shake up and scandal in Student Loans I was in the Loan business for a while till I got an honest job. Aide officers were getting paid off for steering students to the Stafford Loan which has been perverted. Here is a list of the CUNY schools which are mostly in neighborhoods I fought my way out of. With open admissions every dude that wants parole instead of time, he enrolls to "better his life and turn it around".

The degree and certificate program level offerings for each college and stand alone school are noted as follows: 1-Associate, 2-Baccalaureate, 3-Masters, 4-Doctoral, 5-Certificate, 6-Advanced Certificate.

ocated in The Bronx

    * Bronx Community College 1 5
    * Hostos Community College 1 5
    * Lehman College 2 3 5 6

Located in Brooklyn

    * Brooklyn College 2 3 5 6
    * Kingsborough Community College 1 5
    * Medgar Evers College 1 2 5
    * NYC College of Technology 1 2 5

Located in Manhattan

    * Baruch College 2 3 6
    * Borough of Manhattan Community College 1 5
    * The City College of New York (CCNY) 2 3 5 6
    * CCNY Sophie Davis School of Biomedical Educ 2
    * The Graduate Center 2 3 4 6
    * CUNY Graduate School of Journalism 3
    * Hunter College 2 3 6
    * John Jay College of Criminal Justice 1 2 3 5

   
Located in Queens

    * LaGuardia Community College 1 5
    * Queens College 2 3 6
    * Queensborough Community College 1 5
    * CUNY School of Law 4
    * York College 2 3 5

Located on Staten Island

    * College of Staten Island 1 2 3 6

Multi Location and Virtual

    * William E. Macaulay Honors College 2
    * CUNY School of Professional Studies 2 6
    * CUNY Baccalaureate Program 2
    * Online Baccalaureate 2

I see a lot of of AS and Certificates. Not a lot of BA or MAs. It is stupid expensive to send your kid to a decent School. Unless you are dirt poor, you will pay, and it hurts coming out of you nose. The U.S. does a piss poor job of educating. We are really good at other things, but here we fall down. Our High School Graduation rate on a good year never tops 75% . Of that only 60% go n to College. Only 60% of the kids entering College, get a Degree. So if you have a BA you are about 3% of the population.  Our literacy rate is lower than Trinadad.

This is not U.S. bashing I was born here, fought over there, will die here, but I have to be honest about our Education system. For the richest most powerful Nation in World history to date, it is a disgrace.   I really wish the World was as you see it.

[canyon750]

Yes, the all powerful student loan!  Now after you are out of school with $30,000 in debt and if you were in the military they only paid you $10,000 on the G.I. Bill (actual number) you still can't afford to buy a home or take care of yourself or a family.  I don't know about other states but here in California while i was going to college (1989) I saw the tuition jump from $540 a semester to over $1000 in just one semester!  Buy the time i graduated the tuition was close to $2000 a semester!  Classes were so crowded they had waiting lists over 3 semesters long to get the classes you needed to graduate.  A new class of student was born; the 5th semester senior...  By the way this was a STATE COLLEGE!! Not cheap at all back in 1989.

I had a friend who had to work 30 hours a week just to afford a schedule of 4 classes a week.  He routinely operated on 3-4 hours of sleep a day or less.  He had to concentrate so much on work to pay for school sometimes his schoolwork suffered.  His paycheck was just enough to cover his class supply cost, rent, food and transportation.  Once out of school the student loan bill arrived and now he can look forward to paying it off over the next 20 years. Story of my life...

You can't tell me that all the cuts in education haven't affected the cost of going to college.  The govt cuts and we pay!  The standard of education and the studentsultimately lose.

[edbikerii]

Here is a list of the CUNY schools which are mostly in neighborhoods I fought my way out of

We sure have a lot in common.

This is not U.S. bashing I was born here, fought over there, will die here, but I have to be honest about our Education system. For the richest most powerful Nation in World history to date, it is a disgrace.   I really wish the World was as you see it.

Here's where I disagree.  I think the opportunities are there, for the people who are willing to take them.  How many poor parents even bother to go to parent-teacher night?  That's where the problems start in our country, not with the schools.  The schools are kept up to fed standards, the teachers are well educated, but the students are too busy doing drugs and skipping class because the parents haven't spent any quality time teaching them right from wrong.

I went to NYC public schools from kindergarten through high school, then graduated from a CUNY college.  I don't want to brag, but I do OK.  Hell, two years ago I had to let go of an ivy leaguer because he just wasn't productive.  As I keep saying, "you get out of it what you put in".

You fought your way out of those neighborhoods.  I fought my way out too.  The opportunities were there, I simply had to take advantage of them.

[edbikerii]

Yes, the all powerful student loan!  Now after you are out of school with $30,000 in debt and if you were in the military they only paid you $10,000 on the G.I. Bill (actual number) you still can't afford to buy a home or take care of yourself or a family.  I don't know about other states but here in California while i was going to college (1989) I saw the tuition jump from $540 a semester to over $1000 in just one semester!  Buy the time i graduated the tuition was close to $2000 a semester!  Classes were so crowded they had waiting lists over 3 semesters long to get the classes you needed to graduate.  A new class of student was born; the 5th semester senior...  By the way this was a STATE COLLEGE!! Not cheap at all back in 1989.

I had a friend who had to work 30 hours a week just to afford a schedule of 4 classes a week.  He routinely operated on 3-4 hours of sleep a day or less.  He had to concentrate so much on work to pay for school sometimes his schoolwork suffered.  His paycheck was just enough to cover his class supply cost, rent, food and transportation.  Once out of school the student loan bill arrived and now he can look forward to paying it off over the next 20 years. Story of my life...

You can't tell me that all the cuts in education haven't affected the cost of going to college.  The govt cuts and we pay!  The standard of education and the studentsultimately lose.

Dude, you can't even buy a fully loaded Honda Accord for $30K, and you think that's a lot to pay for a college education?

[eldar]

The wrong loan huh. Well maybe so but then did you ever stop to think that maybe my state does not do the same type of loans? Did you ever stop to think your knowledge of this only covers NY? I DID go to a cheap school and it STILL cost me over $3000 a semester with books and my books averaged 200-300 at most. So maybe you need to get off of yourself as you are the only one who sees it the way you THINK it is. Bobby has it nailed right. SAme with canyon.  As for an accord, so what. What does that have to do with this? I see no connection. At that rate, I could say that a Cadillac escalade is $50,000, how cheap is that! But I dont as it has no bearing on this.

When I went to college, I was definately poor. I guess maybe I had enough pride to not ride the system.

[edbikerii]

The wrong loan huh. Well maybe so but then did you ever stop to think that maybe my state does not do the same type of loans? Did you ever stop to think your knowledge of this only covers NY? I DID go to a cheap school and it STILL cost me over $3000 a semester with books and my books averaged 200-300 at most. So maybe you need to get off of yourself as you are the only one who sees it the way you THINK it is. Bobby has it nailed right. SAme with canyon.  As for an accord, so what. What does that have to do with this? I see no connection. At that rate, I could say that a Cadillac escalade is $50,000, how cheap is that! But I dont as it has no bearing on this.

When I went to college, I was definately poor. I guess maybe I had enough pride to not ride the system.

Dude, didn't you even bother to read the link I posted?  For "qualifying" poor people federal student loans are SUBSIDIZED.

The connection is that $30K for a college education is called a "good investment".  In fact, it is CHEAP.  What the hell are you complaining about?

[eldar]

Did I complain about the cost? No I did not. I was stating that your idea of college costs is way off, at least in other states it is.

Also part of my stafford IS subsidized and part is not.  I did not qualify for ALL my loan to be subsidized even though I made very little at the time.  So for you to say that to govt will pay all your interest is misleading at best.

[ledbetter]

Figured I would throw some gas on the fire,but in my humble  oppion half the problem with the education system in this country is the teachers union.Thy don't really care what happens to the kids,all thy are worried about is pay raise and to keep many incompetent's in tenure,not saying all teachers are bad ,just the opposite there are many wonderful teachers out there ,thy just tend to be the minority.
 But I have a general dislike of unions anyway,thy where at one time necessary to help fight for the rights of the workers ,now most unions exist just to collect money and direct there members how to vote.

Ledbetter

[74cb750]

aawh hell, my 2 cents worth...On how to have a Decent America.
I think we should force our politicians in Congress to pass a law where
ALL children of politicians aged 17-28 years, must be drafted holding Congressional office
into the Army infantry for 2 years,
along with ALL children of households with incomes in the top 5%.
No excuses, no exceptions.
Then I think thngs would change.

peace,
michel

[BobbyR]

aawh hell, my 2 cents worth...On how to have a Decent America.
I think we should force our politicians in Congress to pass a law where
ALL children of politicians aged 17-28 years, must be drafted holding Congressional office
into the Army infantry for 2 years,
along with ALL children of households with incomes in the top 5%.
No excuses, no exceptions.
Then I think thngs would change.

peace,
michel

I think some form of National Service would be a good thing. You don't have to carry a Rifle. Even a person in a wheel chair can be of great benefit. There is plenty to get done here at home. You would get a menu to pick from. Oh yeah, this includes Women. Won't happen, but it is a wonderful idea.