Topic: Billet blocks....who will pay...pics added 9/7/09...10/24....2/10

[754]

Sam we dont have a original to scan, that is the whole point..

[Sam Green Racing]

Sam we dont have a original to scan, that is the whole point..

Read Dons post, he scanned the part that allowed him to make a plastic one, so he had the part to start with.

I know we don't have the part, it's going to be up to Mike to make a wooden pattern that can be scanned so the machine can make it in alloy.

Sam.

[754]

if you make a wooden pattern , you could easily cast it.

but to carve it out of bbillet is usually done by programming, or design software.

[crazypj]

It would probably be better to make cast blocks with 'plated' alloy liners shrunk in, that way the costs would be more 'reasonable', heat transfer superior to alloy/cast iron and its rebuildable if things go 'tits up'
 There are plenty of companies who will/can 're-plate' motocross cylinders. Big fat fins may look cool but they do nothing to aid cooling of cylinder.
 If you want to see how it should be done take a look at early Beetle cylinders or, better yet, air cooled aircraft cylinders
PJ

[MRieck]

It would probably be better to make cast blocks with 'plated' alloy liners shrunk in, that way the costs would be more 'reasonable', heat transfer superior to alloy/cast iron and its rebuildable if things go 'tits up'
 There are plenty of companies who will/can 're-plate' motocross cylinders. Big fat fins may look cool but they do nothing to aid cooling of cylinder.
 If you want to see how it should be done take a look at early Beetle cylinders or, better yet, air cooled aircraft cylinders
PJ

...or early oil cooled GSXR's

[754]

Well everyone sure has a different taste..

Myself, I would use same fin pattern, even with billet. They would have to be longer (within reason) as you will end up with no cooling passage between the liner pairs. If the the fin was a bit thicker (ie not tapered off, it would have a beefier  look.

I would want liners, not 1 pce block.

I would like to be able to ride for trips of a few thousand miles in warm weather.

What I would not like though, is lettering on the side or anything that is a dead giveaway, that you run monster bores..

I have 750 scripts on my sidecovers.. yeah its just an old 750  with big carbs and weird pipes............................

[crazypj]

It would probably be better to make cast blocks with 'plated' alloy liners shrunk in, that way the costs would be more 'reasonable', heat transfer superior to alloy/cast iron and its rebuildable if things go 'tits up'
 There are plenty of companies who will/can 're-plate' motocross cylinders. Big fat fins may look cool but they do nothing to aid cooling of cylinder.
 If you want to see how it should be done take a look at early Beetle cylinders or, better yet, air cooled aircraft cylinders
PJ

...or early oil cooled GSXR's

 I didn't want to mention them, they were in production longer than the CB750 (1985-2007 in various configurations/displacements)
GSX-R, Katana, Bandit, 600-1200, (the 400 was in a class of its own) All the others shared same bore spacing and I'm pretty sure main bearings
PJ

[alltherightpills]

Check out Leno's garage, he has a video of a device that laser scans a part then makes a plastic prototype [with moving parts] if the part works then you can use the program to cnc the parts for real. It made a crescent wrench and the jaw opened and closed like the original.

I think rapid prototyping makes more sense.  As everyone else has said, what's the point of making a useless reprodution of a tool or object you already have?

[Ecosse]

unbelievably cool! almost makes me wanna be computer literate. almost.

in regards to don's example of leno's demonstration; there has to be a practical app for this or it simply wouldn't exist. it's not as though his chief wrench cobbled it up in his spare time, right?

[754]

There is apps for it, but think of everything that was built before it, it got done.

 Its great for vintage vehilcle one-off part creation..

 People like JL constantly get stuff thrust at them on the chance they can help promo it along.

[Ecosse]

People like JL constantly get stuff thrust at them on the chance they can help promo it along.

good point. that three wheeled 'bike' is one example.

[Don R]

As Leno mentioned any part can be duplicated. Could a plastic part be made to use as a plug for a casting mold. Or REALLY sandcast. The wrench is just an illustration of what can be made. I know, a fricken wrench don't impress me either but making moving parts does. The model just proves the program got it right before you waste some billet.

[754]

I am not sure what exactly he had in mind to build for a block. But , it wont be the same as stock, and I doubt it will be finless.
So there is nothing to copy..

I dont think it is any problem to design on I think it is solid works, it will show how it works and  there are ways to stress anylyze the material, witout touching tool to part.

 I got to see Goldammer fork he design for Trouble and used on # 39, before it was built, I actually had to ask if it had been made or just modeled. I got an email, when I opened it I saw a revolving view of the fork, standing on a cedar deck. I also remember distinctly discussing the choice of materials, and the switch from ChroMo, to another material & why. The testing program showed which was a better choice. all this done, without touching tool to metal..

[Ricky_Racer]

I've found pattern makers to be incredibly expensive in the US; the actual sand casting is surprisingly cheap!

There's a foundry here in San Diego who sandcasts the trans cases for the Roush GT40. Beautiful pieces.

Rhino 3D (and I'm sure Solidworks) can automatically calculate the correct dimensional change of a CAD model to account for the sandcast shrinkage factor. Therefore a CAD model could be created, the DXF/G-code output to a four-axis wax cutting mill, and the casting wax used to create a high quality mold. This appears to be the most cost effective method I've found of creating cast pieces.

If Sam and his friend get into this project, I wish they'd create the final part to be similar to the JapAuto VX1000 cylinder.  It was very successful in Endurance Racing where longevity is as important as performance.

Now that cylinder I'd have to have no matter what it took!  RR

[voxonda]

I've found pattern makers to be incredibly expensive in the US; the actual sand casting is surprisingly cheap!

There's a foundry here in San Diego who sandcasts the trans cases for the Roush GT40. Beautiful pieces.

Rhino 3D (and I'm sure Solidworks) can automatically calculate the correct dimensional change of a CAD model to account for the sandcast shrinkage factor. Therefore a CAD model could be created, the DXF/G-code output to a four-axis wax cutting mill, and the casting wax used to create a high quality mold. This appears to be the most cost effective method I've found of creating cast pieces.

If Sam and his friend get into this project, I wish they'd create the final part to be similar to the JapAuto VX1000 cylinder.  It was very successful in Endurance Racing where longevity is as important as performance.

Now that cylinder I'd have to have no matter what it took!  RR

I copy that!

[NitroHunter]

Cost be damned - write a CNC program and mill it from billet! 

[Ricky_Racer]

Nitro... Billet is wonderful for a prototype piece or a very, very small run, even though it looks.. well.. billet.  The unit cost pretty much eliminates all but the well-heeled.

However, for a larger run (and a more period appearance) cast has the advantage.

BTW, does everyone in Sacramento say, "Cost be damned?"  No wonder we're broke in California!    RR

[754]

The idea of a  bit lower priced, liberally finned block that can run all day (in warm temps) with 1000cc or larger..is probably most appealing and would sell more units.

In all fairness though RR, nitrohunter runs turbo. if running a 90 hp or + 750, then adding turbo or blower, the extra stiffness & strength of billet will factor in..

 Sure would look cool..

[Big Bob]

Any idea on prices?  I'm probably going to need to move up a class next year.  If they keep letting me run in Production class I'll be surprised.

[NitroHunter]

I'd gladly trade my cast RC block for a billet! 
I'm sure it would be overkill, but what a WOW factor!
Back in the day, a friend plugged numbers into some automotive "calculate HP based on weight, speed, ET, Moon phase, blah blah" deal and came up with 165 HP on a 736cc motor I ran. (It was a time bomb). No doubt that figure is 'overly optimistic' - and bike dynos were rare. I think 140 would be a lot closer.
Any thought as how to incorporate gsxr type oil cooling?
The billet TFX blocks in our dragster, while about 3 times the cost of the old cast blocks, are SO much stronger (and easier to repair) there's just no comparison.
And they look really nice. 

[mrosso]

Prepare to drool.... just turn the sound off.[youtube=425,350]<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="

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type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>[/youtube]

[CBJoe]

Very Cool.

Joe

[Sam Green Racing]

If Sam and his friend get into this project, I wish they'd create the final part to be similar to the JapAuto VX1000 cylinder. 

Ricky, this project is Mikes baby, I was just having a laugh with Sparty and Andy, sorry for the confusion.

Sam.

[Terry in Australia]

Ooooo-er! A billet block would be really cool, but the machining cost would be too high for a tight-arse like me, so if someone can send me an old RC block, I'll take it to China with Steve K0's sand cast cases and get me some "TC Engineering" blocks sand cast while I'm there!

[754]

To make the RC style, you still need a pattern.. about the easiest cylinder pattern in the world to make.

 I doont think the outside is even machined, I think its just sanded or brushed..