Topic: Looking for opinions...... on a Speedway Racer

[HavocTurbo]

Ok so here's the deal.

I contaced Boss Hoss. They told me for a modest sum I can get a copy of the specs of their transmission. Great. But Maybe an "actual" example would be warranted??

So here's my idea: Please bear with me.

In the early 1900's there were boardtrackers. Think of them as early Nascar racers only on motorcycles. Oval and circle tracks were abound in the United States as they are today in the Nascar based racing.

So I am looking to make a "modern-day" boardtracker. Not a replica racer like the one by Goldammer, or a Harley/Indian restoration. Don't get me wrong. Those are wonderful bikes from an age where brakes were ridiculous and armor and leather and safety were words used to describe chastity belts.

What I'm talking about is a modern engine. Preferrably a straight-4 turned sideways. With a two or three speed transmission.

And if you can picture it.....

More of a modern take on the Henderson Big Red X.

What I have so far:

GSXF600 Katana - donor engine
Boss Hoss Transmission - specs only

Ideas for everything else.

What I want from all of you:

If you were going to run a motorcycle for say 150 laps or so at let say..... Daytona Speedway, in excess of 170 mph, what engine would YOU use??

Got any ideas on frame design and materials?

How about suspension? I know Ohlins is the best but..... anything else?

Wheels and tires?

Chain or shaft drive?


Basically anything you can think of to help further this idea along.
I have a full service machine shop at my disposal so lets not get into arguments on what's available in the real world. I'm fully aware that 99% of this is going to be custom one-off parts that may or may not fail during testing. I'm only in the idea stage at the moment.

Thanks in advance for any help!!

Havoc.

[bill440cars]

     Havoc, I wish I had something to offer, but all I have for now, is the enthusiasm! But I've got plenty of that! I'm getting anxious to see what kind of input that you are going to get from this too!

                                      Later on, Bill

[fuzzybutt]

i think the boss hoss trans is a gm powerglide

[HavocTurbo]

i think the boss hoss trans is a gm powerglide

Well if that's the case then it should just be a matter of regearing right?

I wasn't sure what the ratio was, and the people at BH weren't very forthcoming. Let's hope I get some schematics in the mail that explain it a little.

[Industrial Cafe]

havoc, close your mind NOW! this open minded thinking is not appreciated.
you'll fail.
            fail fail fail!
It'll handle horrible, and probably implode right when you start it.
 

I would use a little turbo diesel motor, like a 900cc kubota 905 3 cylinder diesel, just add turbo. and have fun.

they're about 60 horses with a turbo on em.

[HavocTurbo]

lol I can't help it!!!!

I shut it and it keeps swinging back open!!!

I never even considered a diesel. But how much does it weigh?? That's the real question.

Torque per ton would be off the charts, but what I'm looking for is sustainable rpm's in the 9-10 thousand range without major engine failure.

I chose the 600 because the redline on that one is 12-14 if it's built correctly. and figured that 10k wouldn't hurt it too much.

But I had never even thought of a turbo diesel. hmmm....

[gerhed]

In the tradition of the board trackers--why run a tranny ?
Just adds weight.
Put in a jack shaft and get a push start.

[Industrial Cafe]

well, it fits in here...


I dont think 10,000 rpms is not gonna happen in a diesel though.
but powering out of corners will be "WOW".

[HavocTurbo]

In the tradition of the board trackers--why run a tranny ?
Just adds weight.
Put in a jack shaft and get a push start.

Like I said, not exactly a boardtracker, but a modern-day, if they weren't abolished for being murderous, kind of style.

I added the notion of a trans because I want to be able to ride it into the 200mph range and I don't think a direct connection to the rear wheel will be that beneficial for the life of the engine. Or me for that matter lol.

[kghost]

If you want shaft...theres always a BMW tranny.....Single Plate clutch is nice.

A six speed Baker off a Harley could me made to work you'd just have to turn the corner with the crank.

What about something off a marine engine?

[hoodellyhoo]

Inline 4 with an automatic trans? Sounds like you need a Gelbke Road Dog:

[Geeto67]

Honestly? A lot of those early bikes were singles and inlines but a good number were also V-twins. So how about a V-four for the modern interpretation? Something like a VFR engine will handle the rpms you want to spin and be reliable out of the box. Plus it comes with its own tranny (if you really want a two speed then just pull the other gears and leave the shafts for 2nd gear and 5th gear (I think that is the 1:1 gear).

If machining and money is no object - what about making your own billet crank block and use 4 ducati 620 top ends. You get air cooling, desmo valves, it is all belt driven and you can get a real old timey look out of it to boot. With the tranny seperate I don't think this will be that complicated - the hardest part would be finding a crank that would be compatible with the rods. If you use 1000cc cylinders you are talking about chevy 350 sized pistons (4.00 inch bore) and that means you can use all sorts of 4 cylinder car cranks with journals for a chevy rod.

[754]

I am not understanding what your main goal is?

Mainly looks, or just being different?

I am getting so far you want to take a fully functional bike design and turn it sideways, but to what end?

BTW the Goldammer Boardtracker, if you mean the read one has quite good brakes on it, tranny, & lights..

[HavocTurbo]

I am not understanding what your main goal is?

Mainly looks, or just being different?

I am getting so far you want to take a fully functional bike design and turn it sideways, but to what end?

BTW the Goldammer Boardtracker, if you mean the read one has quite good brakes on it, tranny, & lights..

I take nothing away from the Goldammer bike. It's downright disgustingly sweet. But it's a "replica" of an original design. Not a fully modern racer.

What I want to do is try to take that line of original "engineering" and make something that "could have been".

Imagine if boardtrack racers hadn't stopped racing. Where where the trends going? We saw where they went with cars. Especially that type of racing. NASCAR is the result of that. Even if not directly.

So if someone were to race motorcycles at a circle track in the spirit of the old boardtrack races..... what would the bike look like??

And the biggest baddest bike around at that time was the Henderson Big Red X.

So I'm looking to make a modern version of the Henderson.

Does that make sense? I know it's kind of off the wall.

[Geeto67]

I am not understanding what your main goal is?

Mainly looks, or just being different?

I am getting so far you want to take a fully functional bike design and turn it sideways, but to what end?

BTW the Goldammer Boardtracker, if you mean the read one has quite good brakes on it, tranny, & lights..

I take nothing away from the Goldammer bike. It's downright disgustingly sweet. But it's a "replica" of an original design. Not a fully modern racer.

What I want to do is try to take that line of original "engineering" and make something that "could have been".

Imagine if boardtrack racers hadn't stopped racing. Where where the trends going? We saw where they went with cars. Especially that type of racing. NASCAR is the result of that. Even if not directly.

So if someone were to race motorcycles at a circle track in the spirit of the old boardtrack races..... what would the bike look like??

And the biggest baddest bike around at that time was the Henderson Big Red X.

So I'm looking to make a modern version of the Henderson.

Does that make sense? I know it's kind of off the wall.

I think your thinking is fractured. Board track car racing didn't become Nascar, or rather it didn't just become nascar but also became Formula 1 and Indy car, as well as SCCA road racing. All forms of american motorsports pretty much evolved out of that. Sections of board track racing became other racing sports so to say that it flatly became nascar is misleading. Nascar came out of the fairground dirt tracks (flat track racing) that were inspired by board track's versatility as a traveling show. The cars from board track racing evolved into Indy cars though the track changed as well. It is ture that the closest design to those old board tracks is going to be a high bank Nascar race car but there was 50-60years where the sport went without high bank tracks.

The closest thing to a modern board track motorcycle today would probably be a racebike setup for the high bank tracks like daytona. Lower and slightly longer than your standard road racer with slightly better aerodynamics but  basically it would not be that much different from any modern race bike. I don't think the cradle frames would have survived as race bike frames this long while the rest went to wishbone.

 Whenever I think of a highbank bike the first image that pops into my head is "Old Blue" the ducati 900ss from the 1970s. Log low and mean.

[Ecosse]

OK, HOW did I miss this? Got no memo so I'm crashing.

Inline four. V-anything is so "I wanna be like Harley, because I have no historical reference and think HD was the only/first ones to come up with that concept". Inline fours do have a size issue, if just a bit. V anything has inherent torque. I say straight four. The powerglide may not be ideal as it is 2 speeds; high rev bike- fours need them gears.

But if you can work an answer to that I say stuff Boss Hog's "fee" and get a drag (Super Comp comes to mind) powerglide.

part on eBay

BTW: no insult meant to those suggesting v anything. My crit was of outward perception.

[754]

To me the boardtracker has become a speedway bike.. remember ...no gears.. no brakes.. a lot of boardtrackers had no throttle. It was doomed anyway, a bit like figure 8 racing..

 But if you want to do that, just to explore where it goes or can be taken.. forgot the BH parts and concepts.. look to Guzzi, Beemer, or CX500 for clutch and trans.

[Ecosse]

I agree on the evolution of boardtracker to speedway without a doubt. Maybe what Havoc' is thinking is the spirit of the trackers. I imagine it as a what if: someone back in the day took a racer and made it road worthy? What would they need to do? People have done just that countless times in other applications. My prostreet big block Duster and my buddy's prostreet Camaro for example.

Then take that idea and bring it up to modern standards. I really think there's a unique quality about trackers (and speedway) that can appeal to bobber and cafe tastes. Or, more accurately, dragger/ circuit racer. Worthwhile suggestions too about Guzzi, BMW, CX.

FWIW: a profile of a PG shorty.

[HavocTurbo]

I think your thinking is fractured. Board track car racing didn't become Nascar, or rather it didn't just become nascar but also became Formula 1 and Indy car, as well as SCCA road racing. All forms of american motorsports pretty much evolved out of that. Sections of board track racing became other racing sports so to say that it flatly became nascar is misleading. Nascar came out of the fairground dirt tracks (flat track racing) that were inspired by board track's versatility as a traveling show. The cars from board track racing evolved into Indy cars though the track changed as well. It is ture that the closest design to those old board tracks is going to be a high bank Nascar race car but there was 50-60years where the sport went without high bank tracks.

The closest thing to a modern board track motorcycle today would probably be a racebike setup for the high bank tracks like daytona. Lower and slightly longer than your standard road racer with slightly better aerodynamics but  basically it would not be that much different from any modern race bike. I don't think the cradle frames would have survived as race bike frames this long while the rest went to wishbone.

 Whenever I think of a highbank bike the first image that pops into my head is "Old Blue" the ducati 900ss from the 1970s. Log low and mean.

First off. Fractured? Really? You couldn't find a better word?

Look around. What closely resembles board track racing today? Anything? NASCAR. I never said it evolved "directly". But if you look at similarities. It's the closest I can find. 50-60 years is irrelevant in this case.

Please don't give me a history lesson. I know where NASCAR came from. I know what boardtrackers spawned for both cars and motorcycles.

Modern bikes today are designed for road based tracks. Sure they use parts of daytona. but they dont stick to the high banking "circle". That's what I'm after.

Aerodynamics would play a key part in design. But I look at things from a different perspective. I gather my pieces first. Sort of a "desired" list. Then figure an overall exterior shape. If things fit inside that shape, great. If not.... then I need to find or make something that does fit.

It won't be perfect, I know that. But I want to see if I actually "can" build it.

[Geeto67]

First off. Fractured? Really? You couldn't find a better word?

Look around. What closely resembles board track racing today? Anything? NASCAR. I never said it evolved "directly". But if you look at similarities. It's the closest I can find. 50-60 years is irrelevant in this case.

Please don't give me a history lesson. I know where NASCAR came from. I know what boardtrackers spawned for both cars and motorcycles.

Modern bikes today are designed for road based tracks. Sure they use parts of daytona. but they dont stick to the high banking "circle". That's what I'm after.

Aerodynamics would play a key part in design. But I look at things from a different perspective. I gather my pieces first. Sort of a "desired" list. Then figure an overall exterior shape. If things fit inside that shape, great. If not.... then I need to find or make something that does fit.

It won't be perfect, I know that. But I want to see if I actually "can" build it.

Actually the closest thing to boardtrack racing for cars today would be Indy car racing.

just trying to get a handle on where you are tying to go with this. Rather than refernce genres that don't really apply why don't you set some basic criteria and work with in that. All this bull about what if boardtrack racing was still viable is getting in the way of you actually hashing out the project.

so let's start from square 1:

- engine needs to run at high rpm for long periods of time
- doesn't need to shift much
- needs to be able to handle the transitions on to a highbank (massive suspension compression occurs there)
- doesn't need to handle sharp turns
- aerodynamic (the thinner the better)


working from there you can figure out that
- wheel base can be longer than a standard road race bike.
- rider position can be more laid down.
- suspension travel needs to be kinda firm and long while overall profile is thin and not tall.

the more I think about this the more I get this vision of a guzzi dustbin powered by an iron duke chevy 4.

[HavocTurbo]

Actually the closest thing to boardtrack racing for cars today would be Indy car racing.

Board track cars, while they had open wheels, didn't turn right and left during a race. And it wasn't on a course that was based on a road let alone pavement or dirt. I used NASCAR for reference to the racing format. Not in literal terms.

just trying to get a handle on where you are tying to go with this. Rather than refernce genres that don't really apply why don't you set some basic criteria and work with in that. All this bull about what if boardtrack racing was still viable is getting in the way of you actually hashing out the project.

i never once made mention about boardtrack racing still being viable. It's not. Never will be. What I was doing was setting the tone for where I want to go with this. And using boardtrack racing and NASCAR as a reference point for people (like you) who aren't quite on the same page as me for what I want to build.

So I was asking for opinions on parts for the bike. Not the racing style, or history, or literary conception of what racing should be.

so let's start from square 1:

- engine needs to run at high rpm for long periods of time
- doesn't need to shift much
- needs to be able to handle the transitions on to a highbank (massive suspension compression occurs there)
- doesn't need to handle sharp turns
- aerodynamic (the thinner the better)

Tell me something I don't know. While I didn't list it in obvious form like this... I stated almost everything in my original post.

working from there you can figure out that
- wheel base can be longer than a standard road race bike.
- rider position can be more laid down.
- suspension travel needs to be kinda firm and long while overall profile is thin and not tall.

the more I think about this the more I get this vision of a guzzi dustbin powered by an iron duke chevy 4.

Why didn't you post this in the first place? I could've had 2 minutes of my life to do something else instead of read your opinions on me instead of the question at hand.

[Ecosse]

at first i thought the use of an auto trans might be a packaging problem. but given this may be a longer (not excessive) wheelbase, that's not an issue. also, not shifting much & sustained high speeds (?) also works in favor.

i had thought of an auto mill too: the quad four based engine has a following in the hot rod/street rod crowd.

this could be very cool. when i formulate concepts i find it important periodically remind/review the explicit goal or purpose of the idea. it's easy to stray, imo.

[HavocTurbo]

at first i thought the use of an auto trans might be a packaging problem. but given this may be a longer (not excessive) wheelbase, that's not an issue. also, not shifting much & sustained high speeds (?) also works in favor.

i had thought of an auto mill too: the quad four based engine has a following in the hot rod/street rod crowd.

this could be very cool. when i formulate concepts i find it important periodically remind/review the explicit goal or purpose of the idea. it's easy to stray, imo.

Do you think it'd be too wide? I remember the Ford 2.3 (?) have quite a big bell housing. Hence my desire to use the BH trans but make a smaller housing for fitment to a bike engine.

[754]

Indy racing does not compare, turning both ways, have gears, brakes, throttle control and suspension.. boardtracker dont have
all that stuff..

 I am going to go pat my 14 HD twin engine and tell it everything is allright..

...............................................................................

Back to the main topic, sounds like a cool plan, not sure if the engine you chose is oilcooled, but on aircooled, it will be warmer at the back. Use sohc stuff it cheap.


Make sure it has Webers...

Stay away from 2 speeds, not enough torque or brute hp to make it street rideable.

I am enjoying this discussion.

[Ecosse]

yeah, torque was a concern of mine. and being a slushbox can't help... although that's more of an accelleration from stop issue i think.

i guess i have to confess my ignorance, about BH boxes that is  , i have not seen one up close so i'm not familiar with its dimensions.  but as far as width is concerned doesn't the engine block's bellhousing flange decide the width rather than the bellhousing? i can see overall size being a concern.

check this out. i know it's east/west and not north/south.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/11/05/oldsmobile-quad-4-motorcycle-project/

and this

http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/0812rc_gm_quad_4_ecotec_ford_zetec_duratec/photo_04.html

too lazy to hyperlink.