Author Topic: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons  (Read 5482 times)

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Offline MCRider

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Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« on: April 14, 2009, 02:52:47 PM »
I'm still bouncing around about what to do with my cases (CB750K2) on my project. 1. Clean really well and paint over existing paint, which has some stains and flaws. 2. media blast and paint, or 3. media blast and leave natural (appealing)  4. media blast and powdercoat (that's what my powdercoater wants me to do.)

pros and cons?

What do natural cases do if left plain? Do they discolor over time?

I have this terrible aversion to paint. I can get over it if i have to.  ;D
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Offline Magpie

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2009, 03:30:01 PM »
If you media blast use something like soda that will melt away with water. I've been warned off glass beading many times by my mechanic because of the difficulty in getting rid of the glass beads in the case passage ways after the beading is doneHhe says no matter how much you clean the beads still show up later. I would use a strong chemical cleaner, even Simple Green, and rinse it well.
I did use a strong degrease which took the paint off too.
I prefer painted cases but that's just me. I've used Duplicolor Engine Enamel 1615 and been happy with the match to the original color. A buddy has just used on his CBX and is very pleased with the finish as well.
Here's a picture of a K0 engine that I used the degreaser on. You can see the difference between the bare case and the painted part, the bare case almost has a yellow/light gold color.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 03:35:39 PM »
4, 2, 3, 1 would be my choices. Powder coaing would be the most durable. They don't have to lay it on thick. Thinner is better for heat transfer. The coater will do all the prep work to ensure the job is right. ie blasting and pre-baking then bake the finish. You just take them dirty engine pieces. I'd think bare blasted aluminum would look great initially but tend to easily stain. If you're going to spray it yourself I'd definitely blast it first since you're going to all that trouble. It will look better and the paint will last longer. I just left the powder coater. With the money I'm spending I'll go the powder route. I was quoted $275 just for the head and jugs which are the harder more technical parts to do. On the other hand if you have a cabinet and spray paint it'll cost you maybe 30 bucks. If you're just coating the cases you should get by relatively cheaply. 
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Offline kghost

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 04:27:58 PM »
Well.....

This subject has been debated many times....

First. If you leave them bare they will corrode. Period end of story.

How do I know? Well I have a stack of cases of various honda engines.

They corrode just sitting. Inside. Without alot of moisture.

Second. I've bead blasted cases. A lot of the outcome depends on what bead you use.

Notice I did not say SAND.

Yes. Glass bead is a pain in the butt to remove from all the passage ways and screw holes.

Start with a Very clean case (oil, grease, and Solvent free)

I use a set of engine bore brushes and alot of scrubbing.

Third Your powdercoater better be prepared to spend alot of time and tape/plug it up right.

Its labor intensive to make it come out right.

Do it wrong and you'll have powder coat inside. Do it wrong and you'll have powdercoat cracking off at bolt holes and case edges.

I spent 9 hrs taping and prepping my cases. Lots of silcone plugs and fiberglass tape.

I used a set of covers ( right and left) to seal the engine up when the powder was applied.

I took them off prior to pushing it in the oven.

Preheat the cases at least once...they can have a tendency to outgass.

Powdercoating is time and labor intensive VS painting. However done right you can wash your bike with a hose and simple green  ;) Its also impervious to gas and most solvents.

Wanna know how something works? Ask someone who's done it

Been there done that...take it for what its worth.

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2009, 04:39:10 PM »
Thanks all, that brings it back home. KGhost I unnerstan.  I think I've gone full circle and I'm back to cleaning it real good by hand and painting over the existing paint.

The powdercoat is appealing, and I don't doubt its stout, but i don't see how it can be done without a lot of prep as you say.

And blasting is going to require cleanup as well.

Still open minded, but I think I know where I'm going.

I need to suck it up and learn about painting.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 04:43:34 PM »
I pained mine and if you use an enamel, gas is not a problem. Powderecoating has some problems.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 05:30:49 PM »
I pained mine and if you use an enamel, gas is not a problem. Powderecoating has some problems.

What was the last thing you had powdercoated?

I'm currently beating the hell out of at least two powdercoated bikes.

No issues. No chipping, no peeling, no nothing

You've posted before about what a pain or problem powdercoating is/can be.

Back up the statement.

Maybe the problem is the powdercoater or the prep.

Not stirring you up or causing a rumble but come on man....show us something or speak from experience.


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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 04:47:34 AM »
Bead or vapour blast every time. It leaves the cases bare sure but, contrary to some opinions here, the glass beads finely peen the surface leaving a slightly better than satin finish that doesn't really deteriorate. My bomber cases were done in 1999 and it gets some right proper weather racing in the UK - still shiny and nice, no corrosion. 

You get the usual oil stains with burnt on oil but they clean off quicker as they aren't penetrating the peened over surface.

If your blaster is good and you meticulously clean all holes and threads afterwards, you can easily get rid of the glass and you have a great finish too.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 05:47:27 AM »
For a really nice finish bead blast the entire piece, dump the bead and replace it with new bead and go over the piece again. Really nice finish.
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 07:54:16 AM »
I've considered powder coating too, but was unsure if the baking temp would distort the crank bores.

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2009, 08:00:26 AM »
I've considered powder coating too, but was unsure if the baking temp would distort the crank bores.

FJ
Indy Powder Coating, with whom I am/will be/maybe dealing, say they do it all the time. Lots of examples, mostly Harley customs. But same fears apply: prep, masking, cleanup, baking. I guess its all in a days work.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2009, 09:05:51 AM »
I've considered powder coating too, but was unsure if the baking temp would distort the crank bores.

FJ

I haven't seen any of that.  Baking temp is about 400 degrees....which is below where the aluminium would soften.
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2009, 09:35:42 AM »
I haven't seen any of that.  Baking temp is about 400 degrees....which is below where the aluminium would soften.

Thanks
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2009, 10:56:39 AM »
I pained mine and if you use an enamel, gas is not a problem. Powderecoating has some problems.

What was the last thing you had powdercoated?

I'm currently beating the hell out of at least two powdercoated bikes.

No issues. No chipping, no peeling, no nothing

You've posted before about what a pain or problem powdercoating is/can be.

Back up the statement.

Maybe the problem is the powdercoater or the prep.

Not stirring you up or causing a rumble but come on man....show us something or speak from experience.



My love of podwercoat stems frorm buying some very expensive outdoor furniture that had been powdercoated, three years later I was at it with a can of Rustoleum. I am not alone since the Northeast is damper than the Mexican border.
The car restoration guys jumped at powedercoating frames until it peeled and they recieved customer beefs, or their own franmes chipped and rusted. It is hard to repair. Now theyt use the twpo part POR paint.
Powdercoat came about to circumvent the EPA regulations on VOC emissions and waste removal restrictions. It was tried in the Rail industry for the wheel trucks, the abrasive dust and vibration shook it right off. So now two part paint is used.
You want to powder coat a lamp to sit on the end table, that is cool. Maybe some cabin area panels on planes. But for things exposed to harsh environments. I think not
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Offline kghost

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2009, 12:40:09 PM »
I pained mine and if you use an enamel, gas is not a problem. Powderecoating has some problems.

What was the last thing you had powdercoated?

I'm currently beating the hell out of at least two powdercoated bikes.

No issues. No chipping, no peeling, no nothing

You've posted before about what a pain or problem powdercoating is/can be.

Back up the statement.

Maybe the problem is the powdercoater or the prep.

Not stirring you up or causing a rumble but come on man....show us something or speak from experience.



My love of podwercoat stems from buying some very expensive outdoor furniture that had been powdercoated, three years later I was at it with a can of Rustoleum. I am not alone since the Northeast is damper than the Mexican border.
The car restoration guys jumped at powedercoating frames until it peeled and they recieved customer beefs, or their own franmes chipped and rusted. It is hard to repair. Now theyt use the twpo part POR paint.
Powdercoat came about to circumvent the EPA regulations on VOC emissions and waste removal restrictions. It was tried in the Rail industry for the wheel trucks, the abrasive dust and vibration shook it right off. So now two part paint is used.
You want to powder coat a lamp to sit on the end table, that is cool. Maybe some cabin area panels on planes. But for things exposed to harsh environments. I think not

Not talking planes.....

Talking bikes.

Ok so you had a problem with patio furniture and Moisture.

I'm curious to learn why your patio furniture peeled.

(by the way...steel powdercoated in a marine environment is generally etched and phosphated. This is a step many places skip.)

Do you think it was the moisture or perhaps was there some part of the process or skipped part of the process) that made it especially susceptible to moisture?

Of course Powdercoat can chip.....so can paint. If either chips or is compromised....Rust is the result.

As a general rule edges are worse then large areas. Same as paint.

I've found that in general Powdercoat is more chip resistant then paint. When I say chip resistant I mean normal wear and tear.

Powdercoating is far superior to paint in terms of abrasion resistance.

Things that would chip and scratch paint do not seen to affect powdercoat.

Same thing for repeated wear applications. (abrasion resistance)

As far as repair goes....once powdercoat is chipped your kinda screwed. Paint it to match.


The purpose of paint or powdercoating is surface protection...the byproduct of which is beauty.

If I were a betting man I 'd venture that the problem associated with Railroad wheels had to do with the Mechanical interlocking of the applied layer to the wheels coupled with the extreme forces and environment.

Perhaps it was a problem with the application not diffusing into the substrate.

Paint has an edge up in both those.

Primarily this is due to Powdercoating being a "Dry" paint. There is generally no prime associated with the powdercoat (hence no chemical means of surface adhesion as you would have with an etching primer or a phosphate or zinc precoat. Think galvanized)

Bear in mind that many industrial/manufacturing places use a Thermoplastic Powdercoat vs a Thermosetting Powdercoat.

Also bear in mind the different types of powder coat.

There's Epoxy, Urethane, Polyester, and Acrylic. Same as paint because bear in mind powder coat is "dry" paint.

I'd bet your patio furniture was done with the cheapest process and cheapest type that was available to the manufacturer.

Anyways...Metal corrosion can be halted mechanically or chemically.

Take your pick.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2009, 01:21:46 PM »
OK enough of that, this thread is about ME!   ;)

Many here have mentioned soda blasting as an alternative to glass beading, never really clicking why. So I was calling around today, asking about this and that, and one powder coater referred me to another stripper saying they used soda blasting, among everything else, and it was water soluble. So the light goes on. Quick Google on sodablasting explains it to me:

http://www.ace-sandblasting.com/soda-blasting-article.html

In the back of my mind, I really want to strip it bare, but I didn't want the cleanup. Looks like I may be on to something. I've got an email into IDSBlast for an explanation. But if its what it sounds like, that's what I'll do.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 01:25:40 PM by MCRider »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2009, 01:25:07 PM »
Well the virtues of Powdercoat escapes me. And to be honest with you it means almost nothing to me. That was just my 2 cents. I do like anodizing.  
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2009, 01:25:29 PM »
OK enough of that, this thread is about ME!   ;)

Many here have mentioned soda blasting as an alternative to glass beading. So I was calling around today, asking about this and that, and one powder coater referred me to another stripper saying they used soda blasting, among everything else, and it was water soluble. So the light goes on.

http://www.ace-sandblasting.com/soda-blasting-article.html

I really want to strip it bare, but i didn't want the cleanup. Looks like  I may be on to something.

By far the easiest to clean up after. But you dont get quite the finish that you get from glass or other media.

Don't get me wrong, it's not drastically noticeable, but if you've blasted a few thousand parts and then suddenly look at soda.... you'll see the difference.

Dunk your parts in about 150 degree water for 20 minutes to take care of everything and rinse. Done.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2009, 01:27:19 PM »
OK enough of that, this thread is about ME!   ;)

Many here have mentioned soda blasting as an alternative to glass beading, never really clicking why. So I was calling around today, asking about this and that, and one powder coater referred me to another stripper saying they used soda blasting, among everything else, and it was water soluble. So the light goes on. Quick Google on sodablasting explains it to me:

http://www.ace-sandblasting.com/soda-blasting-article.html

In the back of my mind, I really want to strip it bare, but I didn't want the cleanup. Looks like I may be on to something. I've got an email into IDSBlast for an explanation. But if its what it sounds like, that's what I'll do.

The Soda blasting may provide a pleasing texture for whatever you put on top of it.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2009, 01:28:08 PM »
OK enough of that, this thread is about ME!   ;)

Many here have mentioned soda blasting as an alternative to glass beading. So I was calling around today, asking about this and that, and one powder coater referred me to another stripper saying they used soda blasting, among everything else, and it was water soluble. So the light goes on.

http://www.ace-sandblasting.com/soda-blasting-article.html

I really want to strip it bare, but i didn't want the cleanup. Looks like  I may be on to something.

By far the easiest to clean up after. But you dont get quite the finish that you get from glass or other media.

Don't get me wrong, it's not drastically noticeable, but if you've blasted a few thousand parts and then suddenly look at soda.... you'll see the difference.

Dunk your parts in about 150 degree water for 20 minutes to take care of everything and rinse. Done.
Since with a bare surface, I'm OK with painting it, the finish is not a probem. But i do see what you mean. Thanks.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2009, 01:30:43 PM »
Well the virtues of Powdercoat escapes me. And to be honest with you it means almost nothing to me. That was just my 2 cents. I do like anodizing.  
And I'm just kidding around some too. I do appreciate the comments. My powdercoated lawn furniture is rusting after 3 years as well. I do attribute it to a lesser level of care in production. But who knows till you try?

I'm powdercoating the frame for sure. Maybe I won't be happy after wards, but its the experience.  The engine I'm not so keen about.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2009, 02:24:50 PM »
Well the virtues of Powdercoat escapes me. And to be honest with you it means almost nothing to me. That was just my 2 cents. I do like anodizing.  
And I'm just kidding around some too. I do appreciate the comments. My powdercoated lawn furniture is rusting after 3 years as well. I do attribute it to a lesser level of care in production. But who knows till you try?

I'm powdercoating the frame for sure. Maybe I won't be happy after wards, but its the experience.  The engine I'm not so keen about.
As we say in NY. Not for nothing, but I panited my frame with $16 worth of Rustoluem enamel which looks very original. I spent the saved money on a Dyna ignition and most of the new tires.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2009, 02:31:08 PM »
Plenty of people have painted thier bikes with Rustoleum.

Personally I can spot a paint job like that from 20 ft.

Depends what your after.

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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2009, 02:53:22 PM »
Plenty of people have painted thier bikes with Rustoleum.

Personally I can spot a paint job like that from 20 ft.

Depends what your after.



Compared to powdercoating yea it'll be noticeable.

But if you buy enough of the rustoleum and put 10 or 12 coats on it... looks factory and thicker.

But nowhere near as thick as powdercoat.
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Offline mcuozzo

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2009, 02:56:33 PM »
Soda blasting will work for removing paint and light rust anything worse than that and it might have a tough time removing it.  Also it does not "etch" the surface. 

Most powder coaters use some media that is angular in nature (aluminum oxide, coal slag).  This creates a surface that has been mechanically etched.  It provides a better surface for the powder coat to adhere to.  For painting it may leave the surface too rough though.

This picture shows what I'm talking about.  Both brackets were painted black (and had a little rust on them).  The left one has been partially soda blasted.  The right one has been blasted with coal slag. 

You can check out my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/main.php?g2_itemId=306724 for other exmaples.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 03:00:28 PM by mcuozzo »

Offline IHWillys

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2009, 03:16:08 PM »
...I do like anodizing.  

To further muddy this thread, hehe...

A point to consider with some preperatory methods and coatings/surface treatments is their affect on the strength of the base metal.

Anodizing can significantly decrease the fatigue life of aluminum.  A common process of cleaning the aluminum in prep reduces the fatigue life and then the anodizing process further reduces it.  

I only recently became aware of this myself.  

Ken

Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2009, 06:42:48 AM »
Got this return email from the blasters:
"Ron,
Regarding your motorcycle parts.
We only use Soda in our Big blast booth. The rate is $150.00 per hour.
Small parts could be blown around.
I recommend we use plastic media in a small blast cabinet at $60.00 per hour.
We do this type of work alot and I would be happy to discuss the options while we look at the parts.
 
Thanks,

Mike Knauss
IDS Blast Finishing"

So I told him I'd load them up and briing them by. I like his attitude. They only do blasting and evidently, all types. Many of the blasters I've talked to do it as a prelude to powdercoating, which is their real thing. They look at it as a necessary evil.

It wil be several weeks, I'll report back. Got to get back on the frame work first.
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Lazyjay

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2010, 11:18:50 PM »
Cleaning the patio is one of the most important thing to do in order to maintain the durability and strength of it. Most of the times, anodizing decreases the fatigue life of the patio furniture. Using of soda will sometimes help to remove the old paint.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 10:26:19 PM by Lazyjay »

Offline kayaker43

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2010, 02:35:46 AM »
Harbor Freight has cheap soda blasters, do it yourself in the driveway, then hose it down and be done.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66742

+1 on the powder coating, its way better than any paint. Patio furniture may use electrostatic paint or most likely they just skip the prep procedures?

Having said that I found something better for engine parts. Paint is OK for a display bike but its never as durable as the OEM finish. Powder coating is durable, but thicker and it insulates so less cooling.

I used a product called Kal Gard on my superbike engines back in the 70's. They are now called KG coatings

http://www.kgcoatings.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=10&pg=1

I used the original Gun Kote which was designed to protect military weapons. You have to sandblast (or soda), then warm up the part in your oven. Spray it on with an airbrush and the solvent flashes right off so its easy to avoid runs and get good coverage. Then bake in the oven to cure. Its faster and easier than it sounds.

A strip of metal coated this way can be bent back 180 degrees and pounded with a hammer. The very thin coating will not chip or flake, you have to scratch or physically remove metal to remove the color. There is no noticable film thickness unlike paint and especially powder which is very thick. because of this it actually enhances heat transfer for better cooling. I did brake calipers and even coated the bores which still look perfect after 30 years. I haven't found a solvent that bothers it. They also have piston and gear coatings.

The original Gun Kote was a cool gun metal grayish color which looked great on a racebike, but the 2400 series comes in many colors. I haven't seen any of the new colors but the old stuff had a pleasing satin finish.

Buy a soda blaster, and a cheap airbrush from Harbor Freight,.. but better wait till the wife is at work before cooking your engine in the oven. :o

Offline ken736cc

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 06:18:03 PM »
Here are pictures of ny sandcast engine. Everything was glass beaded when it was apart.
K0 sandcast(in process of restoration), K0 diecast, K0 cafe racer
BMW R69S daily rider, 71SL350, 71 SL100, 63 SS50

Offline moham

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2010, 06:43:17 PM »
Regards from the problem for the patio furniture, it is important to keep patio furniture in good condition to maintain. You can add some moisture to the furniture and get rid of the problem. You might to clean it regularly.

wow, brought this thread back to life to talk about patio furniture? how bizarre...

I mean, it was a good thread and all...
78 750K-The Ocho
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70 750K0 motor-Dick in a Box

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2010, 07:17:30 PM »
i wish i had done that instead of painting. i got a carb leak a few days after putting it back on the road now the cases look like crap again.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline mgbgt89

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2010, 08:53:16 PM »
I've considered powder coating too, but was unsure if the baking temp would distort the crank bores.

FJ
Indy Powder Coating, with whom I am/will be/maybe dealing, say they do it all the time. Lots of examples, mostly Harley customs. But same fears apply: prep, masking, cleanup, baking. I guess its all in a days work.

I've heard great things about that place.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Glass beading cases and leaving them natural. Pros and Cons
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2010, 09:04:04 PM »
I've considered powder coating too, but was unsure if the baking temp would distort the crank bores.

FJ
Indy Powder Coating, with whom I am/will be/maybe dealing, say they do it all the time. Lots of examples, mostly Harley customs. But same fears apply: prep, masking, cleanup, baking. I guess its all in a days work.

I've heard great things about that place.
Yes I had them do the PC on my frame and extra parts.(build thread in signature)

As far as this thread, I had IDS glass bead the cases, I cleaned them and painted them with Rustoleum high temp paint. Engine not reassembled yet.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."