Topic: lack of zinc in engine oil....

[MRieck]

I've been reading and actually dealing with several cases of excessive rocker arm/cam lobe wear on several different types of rocker arm equipped bikes. While I realize increased spring pressure will increase wear this loss of rocker arm material has been eye opening. Apparently excessive wear of flat tappets and pushrods is common in older performance cars secondary to the large reduction of zinc in the oil formulas. Zinc is bad for catalytic converters so it has almost been eliminated. Many new bikes are equipped with converters so zinc has been pulled out of bike oils as well. Most new bikes use shim/bucket arrangements so the is far less of an issue in regard to cam wear etc. Some bike oils have very Little zinc added according to a source at Megacycle. Has anybody used ZddPlus zinc additive or a similar additive i.e. Crane's product etc?
  This is NOT an oil thread. I'm not concerned with "Rotella" or "Synthetic vs Semi Synthetic vs Mineral vs whatever else people use". There are "Race" oils with good levels of zinc available. I want to know if anybody has tried additives.

[kghost]

Its a problem with some aircraft too mike...

Specifically the o-320H2AD lycoming.

[bryanj]

Can't say I've noticed Mike but i also haven't been full time spannering for a while.

I do know that when a good friend of mine who raced a 250 had the cam hard surfaced it wore the cam and followers super quickly and it turned out that Honda used meonitic(I think--long time ago now!) cast for the cams and chrome faced the followers so that it wasn't two hard surfaces rubbing together, probably why you run cast rings in a plated liner and chrome rings in a cast as well, not well enough up on metallergy to fully unerstand, just know what happens!

[ofreen]

The reduction or elimination of ZDDP in motor oils something I have been following as well, since I am a cheap ba$tard and keep stuff forever.  It has been hard to find definitive answers about the levels of zinc in current oils.  (And how harmful is zinc to catcons in reality?)  Add to that the fact that a manufacturer can change zinc levels at any time for a given oil with no notice to the consumer.  I have been considering using an additive, but resist it because of all the additive BS from the past.  It would be a drag to find out the issue is real after it is too late and you have a flattened cam.

[hcritz]

I think I remember seeing that most diesel oils still use some of the zink anti-wear additives. Most of them don't have converters to worry about. That may be changing as well though.
Might be worth looking into, as most diesel oils far excede the requirements of our bikes.

[MJL]

I think I remember seeing that most diesel oils still use some of the zink anti-wear additives. Most of them don't have converters to worry about. That may be changing as well though.
Might be worth looking into, as most diesel oils far excede the requirements of our bikes.

Actually, here in the States the gov't has been issuing new regulations for diesel emissions, and some engine manufacturers have been putting catalytic converters on their motors...

[BobbyR]

Mike, you may have seen these already

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0702_pitstop_zinc_oil_additive/index.html

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=555

[Inigo Montoya]

Actually, here in the States the gov't has been issuing new regulations for diesel emissions, and some engine manufacturers have been putting catalytic converters on their motors...

I think europeans have already done this. So I guess you could say we are catching up.
I think additives will be around though for a while. You can still get lead additive for old cars yet.

[chrislib]

I think I remember seeing that most diesel oils still use some of the zink anti-wear additives. Most of them don't have converters to worry about. That may be changing as well though.
Might be worth looking into, as most diesel oils far excede the requirements of our bikes.

Actually, here in the States the gov't has been issuing new regulations for diesel emissions, and some engine manufacturers have been putting catalytic converters on their motors...

yup the new cj4 diesel oils have reduced zinc due to the DPF (diesel particulate filter) and CAT converters on them. Darn, I have been concerned about this as well...to the point that my cheeep a$$ broke down for a true cycle oil ( a 1st for me). see here,
http://www.shell.ca/home/content/ca-en/shell_for_businesses/lubricants/rotella/cj4/cj4_faq.html

heres the $$$ quote...
"20. Is Shell Rotella T engine oil going to have less zinc in 2007?

Yes. The API CJ-4 (next generation) Shell Rotella T multigrade engine oil will have a slightly lower level of zinc than the current API CI-4 PLUS Shell Rotella T oil. Zinc is typically used as part of the anti-wear system within the oil. However, less zinc in API CJ-4 oils compared with API CI-4 PLUS oils does not mean increased wear. In fact, wear protection is one of the key areas where the API CJ-4 category provides improvements over API CI-4 PLUS. (Other areas include; oxidation stability and soot control). The new API CJ-4 Shell Rotella T multigrade engine oil also meets the requirements of earlier API performance categories such as API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, as well as others, and can be used in engines specifying any of these performance categories. "

[Sam Green Racing]

Although a lot of the diesel oils are far superior to normal grades, I personally wouldn't even think about going down that route.
Diesel grades may contain more zinc but consider one thing, all diesel oils are car specific and the anti friction additives in the oil would play havoc with your wet clutch. Much better to get a motorcycle specific oil and find a zinc additive.

Sam.

[sparty]

So Mike, should I use the ZddPlus in the Hot Rod since my cam is so hot and the Kibblewhite valve springs are so stout?

Art

[MRieck]

So Mike, should I use the ZddPlus in the Hot Rod since my cam is so hot and the Kibblewhite valve springs are so stout?

Art

Yes

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Although a lot of the diesel oils are far superior to normal grades, I personally wouldn't even think about going down that route.
Diesel grades may contain more zinc but consider one thing, all diesel oils are car specific and the anti friction additives in the oil would play havoc with your wet clutch. Much better to get a motorcycle specific oil and find a zinc additive.

Sam.

You calling my Harley a car? Diesel or synthetic.

[BobbyR]

I smell an oil thread coming on

[mattcb350f]

So if Zinc is good for our bikes, and it's not in the oil we have now, is the Zddplus aditive the best choice we have to put in our engines or is there another out there.....other than grinding up some health food store Zinc pills and mixing it in 

Its a problem with some aircraft too mike...

Specifically the o-320H2AD lycoming.

It's much more of a problem for the poor sole who finds that out 

 Matt.

[Sam Green Racing]

Although a lot of the diesel oils are far superior to normal grades, I personally wouldn't even think about going down that route.
Diesel grades may contain more zinc but consider one thing, all diesel oils are car specific and the anti friction additives in the oil would play havoc with your wet clutch. Much better to get a motorcycle specific oil and find a zinc additive.

Sam.

You calling my Harley a car? Diesel or synthetic.

 

[sparty]

So Mike, should I use the ZddPlus in the Hot Rod since my cam is so hot and the Kibblewhite valve springs are so stout?

Art

Yes

Thanks brother,

I guess I better order some. A 4 OZ bottle should last two oil changes.

[MRieck]

Although a lot of the diesel oils are far superior to normal grades, I personally wouldn't even think about going down that route.
Diesel grades may contain more zinc but consider one thing, all diesel oils are car specific and the anti friction additives in the oil would play havoc with your wet clutch. Much better to get a motorcycle specific oil and find a zinc additive.

Sam.

You calling my Harley a car? Diesel or synthetic.

Jerry...I actually read that Harley oil still contains a good amount of zinc.

[BobbyR]

Although a lot of the diesel oils are far superior to normal grades, I personally wouldn't even think about going down that route.
Diesel grades may contain more zinc but consider one thing, all diesel oils are car specific and the anti friction additives in the oil would play havoc with your wet clutch. Much better to get a motorcycle specific oil and find a zinc additive.

Sam.

You calling my Harley a car? Diesel or synthetic.

Jerry...I actually read that Harley oil still contains a good amount of zinc.

Is that why the have the chajug cajug  cajug sound, from the fouled plugs?

[masonryman]

roller top end for the vintage cb's, now that would be cool

[fuzzybutt]

i recently got a deal from a shop that was cloding down. rev-tech oil, dollar  quart for all i could carry. i now have enough oil to last me 10 years lol.

[kpier883]

It is becoming difficult for me to find CI-4 rated oil, but I do have a couple of cases on hand.  I have been using the Delo 400 for a year or so.

An interesting thing occurred this week at my office.  The Caterpillar man showed up to do the annual service on the diesel Gen Set (Cat 3406 I believe and pretty old) and I checked the oil he brought.  It was rated CI-4.  I am thinking that the local dealer may be a good place to get the higher zinc CI-4.  This makes sense because they are still protecting engines that aren't running roller rockers - Diesel engines stay in service for decades sometimes.  I suspect that the Cummins, John Deere, Detroit Diesel and other dealers might also carry the higher zinc oil. 

The CJ-4 oil has the reduced zinc because it is for Ultra Low Sulfur engines that also have "scrubbers" for particulates i.e. catalytic converters that would be ruined by zinc as others have pointed out.

[grumpy]

....other than grinding up some health food store Zinc pills and mixing it in 

Powdered zinc oxide (ZnO) is available.
Mix a few milligrams in w/ the oil and you should be good to go - and your engine won't get a sunburn 

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Although a lot of the diesel oils are far superior to normal grades, I personally wouldn't even think about going down that route.
Diesel grades may contain more zinc but consider one thing, all diesel oils are car specific and the anti friction additives in the oil would play havoc with your wet clutch. Much better to get a motorcycle specific oil and find a zinc additive.

Sam.

You calling my Harley a car? Diesel or synthetic (is whats called for).

Jerry...I actually read that Harley oil still contains a good amount of zinc.

The Harley has 3 seperate oil reservoirs: crank case, tranny, and primary case. They all 3 individually use the same oil. I had always used Harley's standard oil. The service manual states "..........use an oil certified for diesel engines... CE, CF, CF-4, and CG-4". I'm assuming zinc here. Switched to Harley Syn3 before our desert riding the season before last. Shifts to neutral MUCH easier with synthetic. Neither bottle lists any ingredients or service grades, just "Harley". "YOU MUST USE HARLEY". Yeah? No #$%* at $12.00 a quart.

[crazypj]

I've been following this for a couple of years.
 Shell Rotella used to have 1400ppm ZDDP.
January 2008 ALL motor oils had levels cut to 1085ppm., to be more 'friendly' to catalytic converters
 Its generally recognised that older engine designs (pre 1995~2000) need ZDDP levels in the 14~1800ppm range. (above 1800ppm there is no advantage, it cost's more without improving anything)
 Most specialised motorcycle oils are still in this range, usually they are semi synthetic rather than full synthetic.
Full synthetics are using a different composition and wear additives other than zddp.
 Thats all I can remember at present ) I do have some notes somewhere 'safe'    bu cant find them.
PJ