Author Topic: Body/paint guys, need some advice  (Read 4342 times)

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MetalHead550

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Body/paint guys, need some advice
« on: October 31, 2005, 02:09:48 PM »
Lacquer or Enamel.  I'm getting ready to paint my 550 suedo-cafe,  which do you recommend.  I know one of the two dries faster, but which is more resistant to chemicals etc.? I plan on doing a base/clear.  You cannot mix the two as far as putting a lacquer clearcoat on an enamel base correct?  I'm obviously a novice at painting so how hard is it to spray metal flake, or should I just stick with metallic till I get the basics down?  I know its all about the prep work and wet sanding before and after clear but any other tips are welcome.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 04:41:19 PM by MetalHead550 »

Offline mrblasty

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 02:33:34 PM »
Acrylic enamel is the type of paint used on modern cars.  If You spray a good clean even coat there is no need to wet sand between color and clear coats.  I'm a bodyman not a painter however I spray my own primer and the key is to spray light overlapping coats until enough paint has been applied. If You get a piece of dirt, fuzz, dead bird, in the clear coat usually You can sand the nib out of the clear coat then use a polishing system to clean up the mess. Keep in mind that there is a bit of a learning curve with spraying this type of paint, remember to clean clean clean and clean again and You will still get a little dirt in the paint, it just happens.
Auto motive metallics add another layer of difficulty to the operation, it can be difficult to get a good uniform flake coverage.
Good luck
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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 05:33:21 PM »
Automotive-type Urethane finishes are the most durable. Then Enamels. My only experience is with spraying Alkyd Enamel, where you have to mix the paint with a reducer (thinner) and an activator catalyst. You can spray it without the catalyst, but the finish won't be as durable.

You're right, it's not a good idea to mix the two paint systems (lacquer vs. enamel). You also want to read up an the primer you intend to use. I prefer the DuPont Veriprime Chromate self-etching primer. It's probably the best stuff you can get and tough as nails (it's even tricky to sandblast it off...), but you have to wear a good respirator with it as it has mind warping vapors and chromates are a carcinogen. Primers like these have a time period after they dry where you can spray the topcoat right on without sanding. However, if you have any bodywork (bondo or any other filler of your choice), you will need to apply a primer sealer before the topcoat. This is because the topcoat can bleed through the self-etching primer and rewet your body work and make it show through the finish- not a good thing...

As for metallic finishes, I don't have experience with "flake" finishes per se, but metallics in general are more difficult as they are harder to get good coverage with. You will need more coats than with a non-metallic solid color. The difficulty I have with them is that if you lay them on too heavy you get runs in the paint. As the old saying goes, "Multiple light coats are better than one thick coat."

I hope this helps.
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 08:01:43 PM »
...did my bike with laquer based rattel can.  Did the whold bike for under $30.  But...u get what u pay for.  The finish will not stand up to gas, and it nicks pretty easy.  Not to mention alot of sanding.  In the end I got what I wanted...I had lots of time, and only a little cash...
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MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 05:50:10 AM »
Well the tank and side covers are very strait and have a good layer of paint on them now,  though its a boring color and is scuffed, dull and faded.  So no body work.  Still need to prime it?  Ive been told by a painter, a pretty decent one, that the best primer is the previous paint, wet sanded.  I did this with a grill I painted and it turned out nice.  Opinions?

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 06:06:53 AM »
uerthane basecoat/clearcoat and if you can find it and if you can afford it,use a polyurethane clear on the tank.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 06:30:00 AM »
Hmmm...Id like to stay under $150 for paint and clear, can I do it?  Is Urethane a Laquer or something else entirely?  Can someone point me to a good site to read up on all these chemicals?

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2005, 06:36:58 AM »
urethane is a,for want of a better word,a "chemically" contrived paint system that is very forgiving and better looking and is also more environmently friendly.it will handle gas much better than laquer or enamel.you should be able to buy the materials for about 150.00 but that would be for a non reddish color.reds always cost more than any other color due to the pigments in the color.if you can find a ppg dealer near you go there and buy the omni paint system.good quality and not too expensive.good luck
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

mylittleho

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2005, 09:50:02 AM »
I've only heard great things about the PPG and Omni Clear.. most body guys I know use it on even show cars..

Don't know about durability with fuel though...

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2005, 10:07:53 AM »
im not too sure about the gas resistance of omni either,but for the money,its a damn good paint system.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2005, 10:08:18 AM »
Dusterdude, you are getting dangerously close to writing a full paragraph for once  ;).  Thanks so far guys.  Ive actually shot the Omni before only it was a single stage Enamel (I think) no clear.  Did pretty good.  Im sure the shop I got it from will have the base clear system I need.  Damn its hard deciding on color though.  Im pretty sure Ive decided on a Ford color (sorry Duster) which is called Dark Shadow Metalic.  Dark metallic grey that turns almost black at hard angles.  Should look cool.  Keep an eye on my gallery post, 78 550 restoration/cafe project,  cuz the finished product will be posted within the next couple weeks.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2005, 10:10:57 AM »
gee,thanks for the complement,i think.i will agree ford does have some real nice colors.ford came out in the mid 90`s or so with a badass bright yellow.i loved that until i saw the viper yellow.ummm,is this a full paragraph? ;D
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2005, 12:37:27 PM »
Ok another question.  I used a buddies gun last time but I'd like to get my own.  I looked at a couple of these guns before but Id like a pro's opinion. 

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&N=0&Ntk=i_products&Ntt=paint%20gun

Should I get the first one or would it be overkill for an amature.  What about the third one.  I dont mind spending the $100 vs. $70 but if its more than I need then why waste the money.  Mabey theres a particular gun youd recommend.  Preferably one I could pick up at a local store.  I wanna spray this weekend.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2005, 01:14:31 PM »
they will probably do the trick.what you want to make sure of is if you use basecoat/clearcoat you should use to different sized fluid tips in the gun a small one for the color and a larger one for the clear.now for the life of me i cant remember the recommended sizes but a good paint shop could tell you.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2005, 01:43:24 PM »
Thanks dusterdude, cool how you helped that other guy w/ getting a title, thats the way it should be.  Ill probably go with the $100 one, it says you can adjust the spray pattern(its nice and shiny too  ;D).  Same thing as changing the tip or no?  What does HVLP mean.  High Volocity Low Pressure is my guess...whats the advantage?

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2005, 01:47:38 PM »
Been following this thread. Always thought it might be interesting to try painting. Is it harder than carb cleaning/tuning?  ;D Aside from equipment, what sort of environment do you have to have to pull it off? I'm guessing pretty elaborate, eh?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline mrblasty

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2005, 02:06:15 PM »
HVLP means high volume low pressure. The advantage is less wasted paint due to less paint mist. Some Urban areas require the painters to Use this type of gun for air quality/pollution reasons.

A trick guys use to control the dust is to wet the walls and floors down and blowing Your clothing off with compressed air before bringing in the parts to be painted.  a paper painting suit will help with this also.
I farted and made my son cry.
1973 Honda CB 750
1975 GL 1000
1975 Yamaha XS650 The Swamp Donkey

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2005, 05:04:43 PM »
Thanks man.  Ill definitly be getting the HVLP gun now cuz I wanna keep over spray at a minimum.  Bob ideally youd have a paint room like you see on the chopper and hot rod shows on discovery, but since Im not insanely rich Ill be setting up a temporary booth in my garage.  As simple as damp sheets hung around a small perimiter and once I have the sheets up ill mist the inside to draw all the dust outta the air.  You want as little air movement as possible when spraying in a non-surgical room clean area, so everything will be shut up tight, but I may crack the window just a bit.  Ill be wearing a respirator cuz the fumes are quite unpleasant and will definitly make you trip-balls after long exposure.  Made my nose bleed last time!  Temperature and humidity are of course big factors when painting and it should be perfect this saturday.

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2005, 12:29:13 PM »
Actually it would be a good idea to have like a box fan with a filter in front of it blowing out of the booth to filter out overspray and get the fumes out, but the parts Im painting are so small I'll be in and out in minutes between coats.  I picked up the paint etc. today and man was it alot cheaper than I thought itd be.  $60 for basecoat, clear, hardener, cleaner, and tack cloths!  Omni urethane.  I also picked up the HVLP gun I had my eye on.  Im stoked!  Hey any of you guys seen or heard of that newer water based automotive paint?  Cant recall what its called..."AIR" something or other.  They have some awesome cameleon colors, Id like to try that stuff sometime.  I got some paperwork with the paint so the answer may lay therin but, the basecoat needs to be completely dry and cured before I spray the clearcoat?  Or can I lay the base and clear all in the same day?

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2005, 12:48:03 PM »
water based paint is ok if you dont live in a high humidy area.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2005, 05:07:28 AM »
Heres a good write-up on the evolution of automotive paints for someones future reference.  From tripod.com:

7. Automotive Paint
7.1. WHAT TYPE OF PAINTS ARE USED ON AUTOMOBILES?
Japanese Varnish: In the early years, between 1900 and the 1920's, Japanese varnishes were used. The varnish was applied by brush. Nitrocellulose Lacquer: in the 1920's, several paint manufacturers were involved in the development of nitrocellulose lacquers. This paint had rapid drying and low viscosity properties, and was applied with air pressure through a spray gun leaving a hard dry finish in approximately one hour. When rubbed, polished, and waxed, it far surpassed in durability and appearance the qualities of the Japanese lacquers. Synthetic Enamel: In the mid 1930's, a new and completely different type of paint was developed, the alkyd or synthetic enamels. It proved to have superior qualities in film strength, adhesion, luster, flexibility and durability over all previous paints. The resin base was developed from the reaction between phthalic anhydride and glycerin, with gums, oils and plasticizers added during the manufacturing process a drying oil such as linseed, a polyhydric alcohol, such as glycerine, and a dibasic acid, such as Phthalic Anhydride. It dries by solvent evaporation, like the lacquer paints, but the resin remains soft and sticky when no solvents are present. It cures to a hard finish by absorption of oxygen from the air. The curing process can be accelerated by heat, and several methods of baking enamel were developed. Unlike lacquer, when dry, it needs no polishing to produce a high luster finish. Acrylic Lacquer: As time passed, chemists developed a substitute for nitrocellulose lacquer, using an acrylic resin as a base. The resins used in acrylic lacquer tend to be slightly brittle. This deficiency is overcome by the use of a plasticizer ( a liquid that is a solvent for these resins and softens them slightly). A cellulosic resin is any resin derived from cellulose (pure cotton). Acrylic lacquer was used extensively by General Motors. Acrylic Enamel: During the late 1960's and early 1970's, technology brought on the development of acrylic enamel, which was harder and more durable. Chemically, it is a cousin to synthetic enamel, but is modified with acrylic resin, and is not soft and sticky with no solvents present. It cures further with the absorption of oxygen from the air. Unlike the lacquers, which remain soluble in solvents, the enamel family is insoluble in solvent when cured. An acrylic resin is chemically any polymer whose basic monomers are chemical derivatives of acrylic acid. Polyurethane Enamel: In the mid 1970's, polyurethane enamel was developed to withstand the severe stress of high speed airplane surfaces, which are subject to rapid temperature changes and flexing. This paint was much more durable than the acrylic enamels. Acrylic Urethane Enamel: Acrylic urethane enamels were developed to withstand environmental elements, such as acid rain and ultra violet rays. It is the most durable paint to date.

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2005, 09:01:53 AM »
The data sheets that came with the paint list pressure setting for both standard and HVLP guns.  At lists it "at the gun" for standard and "at the cap" for HVLP.  Mine is HVLP and has a regulator which I assume is "at the gun".  How the hell do you figure out how much pressure is "at the cap"?  Its a nice gun but the instructions for it suck and are in a thousand different languages.

Offline mrblasty

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2005, 09:19:24 AM »
Set the regulator at the recommended pressure and go for it, I don't know what the cap pressure is about
I farted and made my son cry.
1973 Honda CB 750
1975 GL 1000
1975 Yamaha XS650 The Swamp Donkey

MetalHead550

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Re: Body/paint guys, need some advice
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2005, 12:00:23 PM »
Well its done.  The sheet called for like 37psi at the gun and 7-10 at the cap?  Confused the hell outta me.  I started with the gun set at around 15psi and found it spat too much.  I ended up shooting the majority of the time at 20-25 psi which is still probably not enough which would expain the dimples I got.  Not too bad though, check out my gallery post for pics.  Thanks for all the tips fellas!  One more though:  Id like it to look the best it can so what would be the best way to smooth out the clear?  How long should I wait to try it?  Sheet says 16 hours but probably longer than that huh?  Wet sand or rubbing compound or other?