Author Topic: cleaned carbs on, a little smokey? (Read 6186 times)

cudjo · « **on:** May 10, 2009, 11:31:14 AM »

Just cleaned my carbs

put them back on and the bike stated right up

.....that was the first time it did that!

she idles at around 1k and 2 k with the choke up. (choke does not want to stay up. but i remember glossing over a fix for that in the manual, so I will get to that)

after a min. or two of idle the exhaust gets a little smokey, and it seemed like there was smoke coming out of where the the #2 pipe connects to the engine.
the bike was in a damp area while the carbs were off, and it was raining like crazy. there should not have been any direct rain on the bike. could it be that enough moisture got into the engine while the carbs were off, and that be causing the smoke?
if so do I just let it burn off?
the bike still has to be synced and all that, so if someone knows if I should look for things to straighten out once its sunk?

TwoTired · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2009, 11:38:17 AM »

Blue smoke = oil
black smoke = soot,unburned fuel
White smoke = Water vapor, steam/ (on an air cooled bike it is usually condensation within the muffler.) If condensation, it will likely convert to steam and exit after the pipe reaches a normal temperature over time, say 20 minutes on the freeway.

Check your head pipe temps. Are the about the same for each one?

1timduke · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2009, 12:16:30 PM »

If the smoke is coming from the joint itself where the pipe meets then you need to get some new exhaust gaskets. Leaky gaskets cause an upset in exhaust pressure, causing poor running. They're really cheap and easy to put on.

-Tim

cudjo · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2009, 01:01:41 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 10, 2009, 11:38:17 AM

Blue smoke = oil
black smoke = soot,unburned fuel
White smoke = Water vapor, steam/ (on an air cooled bike it is usually condensation within the muffler.) If condensation, it will likely convert to steam and exit after the pipe reaches a normal temperature over time, say 20 minutes on the freeway.

Check your head pipe temps. Are the about the same for each one?

I would deff. call it white smoke.

thanks TT, your the man!

dont have a thermometer, for the pipes, but i will get one and check it out. ( what exactly type of therm. do I need for that?)

scunny · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2009, 02:15:07 PM »

poor mans thermometer. spit on finger and touch header lightly

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2009, 02:33:18 PM »

Quote from: cudjo on May 10, 2009, 01:01:41 PM

dont have a thermometer, for the pipes, but i will get one and check it out. ( what exactly type of therm. do I need for that?)

If you have a Harbor Freight near, they sell small, inexpensive infra-red therms. that are quite accurate and can be handy around the house as well.

heffay · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2009, 02:52:16 PM »

Quote from: scunny on May 10, 2009, 02:15:07 PM

poor mans thermometer. spit on finger and touch header lightly

stupid man's thermometer... just wrap a hand around each one.

Duke McDukiedook · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2009, 03:00:10 PM »

Just got done cleaning my carbs also. # 2 heated up like it should finally to match the other three and a little smoking occured where there was unburned stuff (oil, etc.)

The same occurred once I changed out my new, bad coil for 2-3 from partsnmore with some Dyna coils. The smoking stopped once it bruned off all the crap in the header.

cudjo · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2009, 03:18:25 PM »

ya I spit on all of em b4 , they are all sizzlin...tsssssss.... and seem to have the same sizzle level. not sure if the viscosity of my spit was the same though. might have to do that one again

mystic_1 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2009, 03:45:10 PM »

Quote from: heffay on May 10, 2009, 02:52:16 PM

Quote from: scunny on May 10, 2009, 02:15:07 PM
poor mans thermometer. spit on finger and touch header lightly

stupid man's thermometer... just wrap a hand around each one.

Id10t thermometer, bump forehead on pipes while checking tire pressure.

mystic_1

cudjo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 12, 2009, 09:59:13 AM »

took off the pipes to derustify, there was no water in them?

I figured that there would be a fair amount in there to cause the smoke, but there was none.
should I be able to see the water, should i be able to pour it out if the pipes are off?

also now that the pipes are off what do the gaskets look like that are supposed to be between the pipes and the engine?

is there anything I should check for while the pipes are off?

heffay · « **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2009, 10:00:39 AM »

exhaust gaskets are a crush type... can be cloth wrapped w/ wire or crush copper gaskets.
they are typically toast after one or two installations.

cudjo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2009, 10:20:15 AM »

so they are the metal slides on the end of the pipes?

heffay · « **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2009, 10:30:10 AM »

i think what you are talking about are the exhaust flanges... the parts that hold the headers on, correct? they are finned? those are not the gaskets, you may not even be able to see the gaskets since they are covered in carbon/soot. they'll be stuck to the exhaust ports on the motor most likely.

cudjo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2009, 10:33:52 AM »

ya, I just found a pict online of wht the gasket looks like.
I will get in there and see what they are looking like.

thx

TwoTired · « **Reply #15 on:** May 12, 2009, 10:40:58 AM »

Quote from: cudjo on May 12, 2009, 09:59:13 AM

took off the pipes to derustify, there was no water in them?

I figured that there would be a fair amount in there to cause the smoke, but there was none.
should I be able to see the water, should i be able to pour it out if the pipes are off?

also now that the pipes are off what do the gaskets look like that are supposed to be between the pipes and the engine?

is there anything I should check for while the pipes are off?

Ever see water form on the outside of an iced beverage? This is condensation that collects from the humidity in the warmer air making contact with the cold glass surface. Saturated air can no longer hold suspended moisture, and this is deposited on the wall of the glass.

Whenever the air inside the muffler is warmer than the outside air, this same condition exists. Humidity in the air gets deposited on the inner wall of the muffler/ pipe as condensation. The water is a byproduct of combustion and it can also come from the outside air. It can build over time if the engine never gets the pipe to a temperature to evaporate all the water collected throughout the pipe. There is usually a hole in the pipe system at the low point to drain off large excesses, but the condensation can easily stick to the pipe walls just as it does on the outside of that drinking glass.

When the pipe heats, it slowly turns the water into vapor. Just as when you boil water on the stove, it doesn't turn all the water to steam at once, it does it gradually until it is all gone. That is why I told you to run the bike on the freeway for 20 minutes or so, in order for the engine heat to warm the pipe to a temperature that eventually turns all the condensation to water vapor an pushes it out the end of the pipe.

The cycle is repetitive, by the way. As the pipe cools down, more condensation builds up on the inner pipe wall. Next time you start it up and the pipe begins heating, you'll see white smoke again. The severity of the condensation, and duration of the vapor exit, interacts with the temperature and humidity of the atmosphere where the bike lives.

The header gaskets look like copper doughnuts when new, and deform or flatten during installation. They stick in the head and often have black deposits on them to camouflage their lurking remains.

Cheers,

cudjo · « **Reply #16 on:** May 12, 2009, 11:28:43 AM »

I dont see anything that resembles a gasket inside the (hole where the pipe goes...) just soot.
is it possible that there was no gasket there?

TwoTired · « **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2009, 01:45:45 PM »

Was it leaking? If not, there is a gasket in there. Use a small wire brush to clean off the soot. I think the stock gaskets are copper. Should see color.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2009, 02:14:11 PM »

Yes stock gaskets are copper colored and will be smashed flat to maybe 1/8 inch thickness. It's easy to not see them under all the soot and oxidation. The exhaust port itself is aluminum so if you scratch the soot off and see silver, no gaskets and PO was a dumbass. If you see copper the old gaskets are there and you should pry them out with a big #3 flat head screwdriver or something.

mystic_1

cudjo · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2009, 02:39:49 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 12, 2009, 10:40:58 AM

That is why I told you to run the bike on the freeway for 20 minutes or so, in order for the engine heat to warm the pipe to a temperature that eventually turns all the condensation to water vapor an pushes it out the end of the pipe.

the bike is not road ready yet, and when it becomes so, I will probly not be getting to the highway till I learn how to ride.

is there another way to get the water off the pipes

thx

TwoTired · « **Reply #20 on:** May 12, 2009, 02:52:13 PM »

Quote from: cudjo on May 12, 2009, 02:39:49 PM

is there another way to get the water off the pipes

- You can pump dessicated air through them.

- Take them to the desert and let them bake in the hot sun for awhile.

- Bake them in an oven.

Why is this so important to you?

cudjo · « **Reply #21 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:05:17 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 12, 2009, 02:52:13 PM

Quote from: cudjo on May 12, 2009, 02:39:49 PM
is there another way to get the water off the pipes

- You can pump dessicated air through them.

- Take them to the desert and let them bake in the hot sun for awhile.

- Bake them in an oven.

Why is this so important to you?

just because its a lot of smoke....I dont know if I will have a hard time getting an inspection if its smoking like that ....and I want to know as much as I can, about everything

...

TwoTired · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:18:31 PM »

Does the smoke have a smell? Is there a coating on the inside of the pipes? Describe it.

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:37:17 PM »

does the smoke last a while? does it only come out at certain RPM's? have you tuned the carbs yet? from your avatar, it looks like you have an F2. if that's the case you may have leaky valve guides like i think i do. but mine isn't just puffing out smoke like what i am gathering from your description.

cudjo · « **Reply #24 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:37:57 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 12, 2009, 03:18:31 PM

Does the smoke have a smell? Is there a coating on the inside of the pipes? Describe it.

It just smells like exhaust.... might b a little strong but its smells like exhaust to me.
inside is very sooty, and it does feel moist... Like the inside of a smoking pipe might be, kind of resiny...I guess thats where the moisture whent huh?

cudjo · « **Reply #25 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:43:55 PM »

Quote from: midnight08 on May 12, 2009, 03:37:17 PM

does the smoke last a while? does it only come out at certain RPM's? have you tuned the carbs yet? from your avatar, it looks like you have an F2. if that's the case you may have leaky valve guides like i think i do. but mine isn't just puffing out smoke like what i am gathering from your description.

I think that I have a F3, (the 78 is the F3 right)...I have a 78.
I have not tuned the carbs yet.
as for the smoke it comes on after the bike has been running for a min or 2, just idleing, dont have the bike on the road yet.

I think that i might be going with TT's diagnosis, I just felt the inside of the pipes and there is surely some moisture mixed in there with that soot.

what is the valve guide, and how would I know if they were leaky?

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #26 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:46:37 PM »

does the smoke linger? for instance... when it comes out of the pipe, does it act like steam and disipate like the steam coming out of your tailpipe on a cold morning? or does it act like actual smoke and act "heavy" or stick around? for instance, when its inside a garage or a closed space, will the smoke linger inside the garage?

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #27 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:48:28 PM »

the valve guides are inside the motor and you will tell if they are leaky by burning oil giving you a light blue smoke. does the smoke ever go away? or if you leave it running will it ever stop?

cudjo · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:54:58 PM »

Quote from: midnight08 on May 12, 2009, 03:46:37 PM

does the smoke linger? for instance... when it comes out of the pipe, does it act like steam and disipate like the steam coming out of your tailpipe on a cold morning? or does it act like actual smoke and act "heavy" or stick around? for instance, when its inside a garage or a closed space, will the smoke linger inside the garage?

I wouldnt say that it lingers, and i wouldnt call it light blue....

and ift its water like TT says then it wouldnt go away until i had the bike going at highway speeds for 20 min

cudjo · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:11:04 PM »

I have to say midnight08, your avitar is a bit disturbing..... just a bit....

J.Webster Designs · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:18:50 PM »

im saying after the "smoke" exits the pipe... i think you are going to have to get more decriptive with the smoke. or take it to a shop to have someone know what they are looking for identify the smoke at least.

cudjo · « **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:31:56 PM »

Quote from: midnight08 on May 12, 2009, 04:18:50 PM

im saying after the "smoke" exits the pipe... i think you are going to have to get more decriptive with the smoke. or take it to a shop to have someone know what they are looking for identify the smoke at least.

the smoke is white, it is conststant once it starts, i dissipates fairly quickly, doenst seem to linger much, not for more than a 5, 10, sec.

I will probly be taking it to a shop.
dont have any money for service right now, so I am trying to do as much as I can on my own.
there is also the slightest rattle/ ticking when the motor is running, that i want some one to check out..... may be nothing, but i dont know, and I wouldnt be able to describe it any better to ask anyone on the forum.

TwoTired · « **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2009, 05:52:32 PM »

You said it was smoking.
I gave guidelines about smoke color.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=51139.msg543499#msg543499

The F3 is notorious for wearing out valve guides rapidly. This would give smoke with a blueish tinge and it would smell like burnt oil.
When guides are worn, it leaks oil onto the back of the valves. The intake valve guides would pour oil into the chamber, and the spark plug could have oil deposits or be wet with oil. If the exhaust V guides are worn, it dumps oil in the exhaust header. This will leave oily deposits in the exhaust that won't dry out. Mixed with soot its almost like tar. If the soot deposits are wet with condensation, they will dry out and leave fluffy black soot.

We have to go on your reported conditions and observations.

How many miles on your F3?

cudjo · « **Reply #33 on:** May 12, 2009, 09:04:18 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 12, 2009, 05:52:32 PM

You said it was smoking.
I gave guidelines about smoke color.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=51139.msg543499#msg543499

The F3 is notorious for wearing out valve guides rapidly. This would give smoke with a blueish tinge and it would smell like burnt oil.
When guides are worn, it leaks oil onto the back of the valves. The intake valve guides would pour oil into the chamber, and the spark plug could have oil deposits or be wet with oil. If the exhaust V guides are worn, it dumps oil in the exhaust header. This will leave oily deposits in the exhaust that won't dry out. Mixed with soot its almost like tar. If the soot deposits are wet with condensation, they will dry out and leave fluffy black soot.

We have to go on your reported conditions and observations.

How many miles on your F3?

the bike has 10k on it.
the smoke is white
the smoke dose not smell like oil.
in thinking about it, the bike has probly been through several cycles not staying a t full temp.
the PO who was in WI took the bike for a few spins around the block after getting it out of storage. but this was a month ago, and the temps in WI would have in the 50s mayb.
then I did it a few times, not riding but on for a few mins with some reving then off....

your first call, for the water being the culprit, seems to make the most sense... but it looks like I will have to wait till i get the bike on the road, or to a mechanic to be sure.

thanks for sticking with me on this i know that my newb questions can be tireless.

BeSeeingYou · « **Reply #34 on:** May 12, 2009, 09:24:43 PM »

How long have you run the bike? When I got my 76F running I ran it several times for short periods of time (1 or 2 minutes) and just in the garage as the brakes were not hooked up yet. Then one time I let it run much longer and I had some white smoke. There is a small hole in the inside bottom of my muffler and it actually spat out water and made a wet spot on the tire. It is spring here with much variation in temps and I chocked this up to condensation. It has not happened since and now the bike is on the road. If you can't get it out on the road put a fan on it and let it run and get up to temp.

cudjo · « **Reply #35 on:** May 13, 2009, 04:32:42 AM »

Quote from: srust58 on May 12, 2009, 09:24:43 PM

How long have you run the bike? When I got my 76F running I ran it several times for short periods of time (1 or 2 minutes) and just in the garage as the brakes were not hooked up yet. Then one time I let it run much longer and I had some white smoke. There is a small hole in the inside bottom of my muffler and it actually spat out water and made a wet spot on the tire. It is spring here with much variation in temps and I chocked this up to condensation. It has not happened since and now the bike is on the road. If you can't get it out on the road put a fan on it and let it run and get up to temp.

I'll try that out... thx

cudjo · « **Reply #36 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:50:04 PM »

put the pipes back on, let it run for a bit.
smoke subsided after about 15 min. and came back a little after i reved it a few times. i suppose the revving got another part of the pipe hot.

Ill keep an i on it. still have to take the pipes back off and put new gaskets on. there semed to be smoke coming off the engine... but i coudnt tell cause i know there is smoke coming out of the #2 connection to the pipes

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Author Topic: cleaned carbs on, a little smokey? (Read 6186 times)