Author Topic: Replaced clutch - now won't engage  (Read 3527 times)

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Offline ev0lve

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Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« on: May 15, 2009, 05:22:15 PM »
Hey there,

Read up on the procedure at salocal and it looked simple. Took pics as I took it apart and reassembled in reverse order.

Now though I can't get the clutch to engage at all. In gear/out of gear it won't move the bike at all.

Anyone know what I did wrong or can suggest where to look?

Much appreciated!
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 06:44:31 PM by Iggy »

Offline kghost

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Re: Replaced clutch - now wont' engage
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2009, 05:28:27 PM »
Could be a number of things..

Did you tighten the 4 bolts on the throw out bearing in the proper sequence?

You didn't overcenter the swashplate that pushes on the bearing did you?

Would you say the arm the cable attaches to is in the same postition?
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Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now wont' engage
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2009, 05:53:14 PM »
Could be a number of things..

Did you tighten the 4 bolts on the throw out bearing in the proper sequence?

I'm on dial up at the moment so I'll steal salocal's pics.

These four bolts with the springs underneath?


Went at it in an x pattern if that's the proper sequence  ;D

Quote
You didn't overcenter the swashplate that pushes on the bearing did you?

The which in the who? That's on the other side of this and actuated by the cam (3 bearings covered by a plate?)



Quote
Would you say the arm the cable attaches to is in the same postition?

Yes. That much I'm sure of  ;D

Offline kghost

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Re: Replaced clutch - now wont' engage
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2009, 05:57:48 PM »
No an X pattern is not correct.

You can tighten the about a turn at a time...one bolt revolution..in a clockwise or counterclockwise pattern...I don't believe it matters.

Yeah that thing with the three balls....if you jump the balls on the plate if screws everything up.

Also did you adjust the throw out? its the thing with the slot and the locknut in the second picture.

No parts left over right? no extra plates?
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Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now wont' engage
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 06:44:06 PM »
No an X pattern is not correct.

You can tighten the about a turn at a time...one bolt revolution..in a clockwise or counterclockwise pattern...I don't believe it matters.
Excellent. Can do!

Quote
Yeah that thing with the three balls....if you jump the balls on the plate if screws everything up.

Hmmmm.

Quote
Also did you adjust the throw out? its the thing with the slot and the locknut in the second picture.

Yes, adjusting the clutch I actually have some experience with  ;D

Quote
No parts left over right? no extra plates?

All parts accounted for  ;D

Sitting here staring at the basket and the clymer I think I know what I did.

The old friction plates are about .5 mm smaller than the new plates - 3.5mmish more width.

I put heavy duty springs in (which I think I'll replace now with the stockers as they measured out fine and it makes the lever a bear - I'm no dragracer) which are actually a bit smaller than the stock springs.

Overall I think I didn't see a spec for what/how/why to tighten down the lifter plate (over the springs) and overtightened them ending up with the the clutch freewheeling no matter how I adjusted it.

So I'll try again and not tighten the lifter plate any more than required to hold it in place.

Reading the salocal FAQ and Clymers neither really mention how to determine where the lifter plate should be in height.

Is there a best practice for this that you can follow no matter the height/width of the springs/friction plates? Did I just miss that info somewhere?

OK, off to give it a go and I'll report back. Really do appreciate the help here KGhost!

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 08:04:00 PM »
Hmmm,

It'll creep forward a bit. So all the way out - just snug and a turn or two is the trick?

Offline Bodi

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 08:36:02 PM »
The clutch operation is pretty simple and you should be able to see the problem if you look closely at how it all goes together.
The clutch is built sort-of backwards, so that the declutching stuff can be on the end of it. Many older bikes (and some current ones) run an actuating rod through the centre of the shaft the clutch is on (normally the transmission mainshaft) - this way the outer end of the clutch is being forced in by the springs and declutching forces it out. Servicing this type of clutch is a bit easier since you don't have to pull the whole thing out to access the plate stack.
That cutch rod has been troublesome on many bikes, so this "reversed" type was designed to put the declutching mechanism right on top of the stack, mounted in the cover. You can't see the cluch being released - the cover has to be bolted on to do that. That makes it a bit tough to diagnose a clutch that won't release.
The four springs push outward on that spider thing, which is bolted to long prongs attached to the rearmost plate on the clutch pack. This squeezes the plate stack together and makes the clitch "clutch".
So you don't need the cover on to see why a non-clutching one is malfunctioning. It should be locked up solid until the cover mounted cam etc. presses in on the throwout bearing.
It sounds like something is hanging up the pressure plate at the back, not letting it pull tight against the plates. The spring bolts are not an issue, and overtightening these will just strip then threads (bad idea) while too loose may allow them to work lose... if you fail to notice this a bolt head can damage the inside of the clutch cover.
If you remove the clutch you can try assembling it without the plates, the pressure plate should drop pretty deep into the basket and if it won't, look for the obstruction. Make sure no inner tooth plates are binding on the centre spline. Ensure the odd plate is in the right place, as I recall it goes at the innermost position. It's worth stacking the steel plates against each other and making certain that if there's any dishing (usually there is) all the plates are facing the same way. I've never seen new friction plates dished, but maybe check them too.
Check the splines and basket fingers for rougness. Both can develop "steps" or indents where a plate has sat for a long time working against the alloy as the engine turns and vibrates. That can cause slipping and nonlinear clutch action whan new plates with sharp unworn corners on their teeth grab on these indents along the spline or fingers.
The clutch should be locked up solid with the cover off, loosening the bolts until the springs are unloaded should declutch it enough to allow the spider to turn in the basket.

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2009, 07:31:29 AM »
The clutch operation is pretty simple and you should be able to see the problem if you look closely at how it all goes together.

Your faith in my powers of deduction is much appreciated!

Quote

Ensure the odd plate is in the right place, as I recall it goes at the innermost position.


There are seven friction plates and 6 steel.

Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction

The clymer shows another retaining ring but I have it in the same order as it came out.

Quote

It's worth stacking the steel plates against each other and making certain that if there's any dishing (usually there is) all the plates are facing the same way. I've never seen new friction plates dished, but maybe check them too.

No discernable dishing in either friction or steel plates I could see.

Quote
Check the splines and basket fingers for rougness. Both can develop "steps" or indents where a plate has sat for a long time working against the alloy as the engine turns and vibrates. That can cause slipping and nonlinear clutch action whan new plates with sharp unworn corners on their teeth grab on these indents along the spline or fingers.

None that I can see but this is my first time looking closely at this mechanism's pieces

Quote
The clutch should be locked up solid with the cover off, loosening the bolts until the springs are unloaded should declutch it enough to allow the spider to turn in the basket.

DING!

So is this a positive test? It should NOT spin? Mine will still spin in the basket. Took all night just to upload these pics.

Plates installed


Lifter plate finger tight


Tightened down


Went at it till about eleven trying to adjust. I must be missing something very simple here.

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2009, 09:55:24 AM »
Hmmm, so in gear the basket turns. In nuetral it doesn't.

I'm thinking this means the problem isn't in the basket, yes?

That means I can narrow this down to the actuator or cable adjustment?

This is seriously pissing me off  ::)

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 02:08:20 PM »
Once more with feeling.

Got the cover on and no movement. Completely disengaged.

W. T. F.

Offline martino1972

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2009, 02:25:07 PM »
now,the way it is sitting there on those pictures,no clutch cover on it....bike on center stand,put it in gear and move rear wheel . does it turn the engine then? if it does the problem is in your cover/clutch adjustment contraption,if it doesn't somethings a miss in the clutch basket/assembly...
Marti, I want you to know, I like you an awful lot, but guys have said far less and left wearing their drinks on their shirts.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36933.0  (my bobber)

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2009, 02:32:13 PM »
Yep, in first the basket turns - in neutral no turn.

Adjusted the screw out as far as it would go and tried it.

Adjusted per the instructions - bottom out back off.

Tried adjusting the plate down and back.

Every time I put the cover on - won't engage.

It's something stupid but I've run out of things to adjust.

Ideas?

Offline martino1972

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2009, 02:33:13 PM »
in first basket turns,but does the ENGINE turn also?
Marti, I want you to know, I like you an awful lot, but guys have said far less and left wearing their drinks on their shirts.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36933.0  (my bobber)

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2009, 02:38:47 PM »
Didn't really check. There's resistance. Did it this morning and home now. Bike off the centerstand pushing. I suppose in first there should have been A LOT of resistance.

If the shaft that's in the middle of the basket is attached to the drive chain that's attached to the crank it had to turn the engine?

Looking for a schematic now....

The shaft in the basket is the one toward the rear of the engine? So not directly but in gear would HAVE to turn the crank? How would a bump start work otherwise.



It was working prior to my monkeying with it and replacing the friction discs. I rode it up to my pop's so I could use his garage.

Geez. I swear. I made this elephant lamp but when you pull the trunk the light doesn't come on you know?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:50:57 PM by Iggy »

Offline martino1972

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »
see,with the cover off,the clutch should be engaging the tranny with the engine...therefore,without cover the engine should turn over if the rear wheel gets moved while in gear....if you just feel resistance but the engine does NOT turn over that means there's something wrong in the clutch basket area....now if it WOULD move the engine that way,that means there is something wrong with the clutch contraption in the cover part....

Marti, I want you to know, I like you an awful lot, but guys have said far less and left wearing their drinks on their shirts.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36933.0  (my bobber)

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2009, 02:53:28 PM »
Check alignment of pressure plate splines and clutch center splines:

A common assembly mistake is to not have the splines on the clutch center aligned with the matching splines on the pressure plate.  As a result, the clutch cannot engage.

Normally their respective splines mesh like this:



BUT you will find that if you rotate the clutch center by 90 degrees, the splines no longer line up properly:




See the following posts for rambling dissertation:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36525.msg377135#msg377135

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=41454.msg427605#msg427605

mystic_1

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Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2009, 02:58:23 PM »
If you don't mind turning this into a symposium on CB750 clutches...

I had that thing in and out of there 5 times yesterday. Is there a way to know I'm not making this mistake other than it doesn't work? The basket bottoms out in the hole... I thought.

Definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?  ::)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:00:26 PM by Iggy »

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2009, 03:02:22 PM »
See the following posts for rambling dissertation:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36525.msg377135#msg377135

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=41454.msg427605#msg427605

mystic_1

Oh that's good stuff! Thanks for that!

Edit:

Hell in a bucket. I bet this is EXACTLY what I did.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:30:26 PM by Iggy »

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2009, 12:58:15 PM »
Just to confirm, got the clutch apart and the above is exactly what I did wrong. Got it back together and had some adjustment issues (not fully engaging still) and decided the last few times of adjusting the pressure plate to get the cable back on by just levering the arm up with a screwdriver.


It's not so much fun being dumb.

Anyone have an arm they'd like to sell?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 09:45:23 AM by Iggy »

Offline martino1972

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2009, 01:13:20 PM »
I see your having lot's of fun there..... :D :D :D :D
Marti, I want you to know, I like you an awful lot, but guys have said far less and left wearing their drinks on their shirts.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36933.0  (my bobber)

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2009, 04:35:07 PM »
I see your having lot's of fun there..... :D :D :D :D


And it's sunny and 74 degrees outside  ::)

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2009, 06:17:24 PM »
Welp, took it to a real mechanic and the verdict is twofold.

1: This nut was too loose oweing to my not wanting to wail on it with a hammer and screwdriver.


2: The parts unlimited clutch cable I got has an end on it that doesn't fit the hole in the clutch cover. He swapped me out for a used Motion Pro he had on hand which fit in the hole nicely. Screw you Parts Unlimited.

So, uh, don't buy this one.
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/search/search.jsp?x=0&y=0&searchString=cb750+clutch+cable&store=&resultType=subCategories

Buy this one
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1396

I now have a working clutch that has a little over 1/2 inch of engagement starting about the middle of the levers travel.

Hope that's helpful to some other schmuck  ::)

On the plus side I did get it put together right with your guys help and a special thanks to kghost who shipped me a replacement for the lever I busted (Thanks Kghost! You rock/rule/some other adjective that starts with r!)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 06:23:29 PM by Iggy »

Offline Hush

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2009, 08:28:30 PM »
Hey Iggy make sure your centre nut is.........ops too late. :D
Happy riding now it's fixed.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline kghost

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2009, 01:32:13 PM »
Oddly enough the first one I was gonna send you was Cracked.....

Yours might have had some damage ya didn't see...might not have been you breaking it.

Second one was good.

Btw they make a tool to tighten that nut.
Stranger in a strange land

Offline ev0lve

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Re: Replaced clutch - now won't engage
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 09:40:06 AM »
Oddly enough the first one I was gonna send you was Cracked.....

Yours might have had some damage ya didn't see...might not have been you breaking it.

Second one was good.

Btw they make a tool to tighten that nut.
Since it broke in my hand I get to claim responsibility.


http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=2161

$38 vs the $100 it took for the guy to diagnose and fix. I think the math works out in favor of buying the tool. Lesson learned. Course now I won't need it for another 20000 miles or so ::)