Topic: torque wrenches, I don't trust them

[scott_cb650]

Do you trust or always use a torque wrench?
I don’t trust them since I was changing head gaskets on my boat motor (steel bolt into aluminum block) and stripped the hole well before the recommended torque setting.

If you do use them, what type / style do you like the most?

Thanks.

[MRieck]

Use the right lube on the bolt/or nut. Click or electronic sense.

[R. Hykawy]

I use a click type, also mine is recalibrated at least annually,as I also use it for my work.

[brimar6]

Scott,
   I just happen to calibrate TQ Wrenches for a living, for the last five years. I have to say if your wrench has been calibrated on at least bi-annual basis and used correctly it will not break or strip anything when the correct torque is applied for that item. One thing to think about is if the wrench has been dropped or misused it's calibration has more than likely been knocked out of whack. Also if you used any type extension, universal (angle) or crowsfoot (offset) they will need to be figured in to the equation because it will have a known effect on the torque value. You DO NOT want to lubricate, you always torque dry, lubrication will drive up the torque value on the item to which the torque has been applied. Another words torque a bolt dry to 30ft.lbs. and the TQ wrench will break at 30ft.lbs. and that is what you will have for an applied torque on the bolt. If you lubricated that same bolt even though the wrench would break saying the torque was 30ft.lbs. it would actually be a lot more than 30ft.lbs. and there is no known way to compensate for lubrication. The breaking type (click) is probably the most accurate and durable.

[bryanj]

Easy enough to check if its close with spring balance. Most readily available torque wrenches are only guaranteed +/- 10% anyway

[Raul CB750K1]

brimar6, I got a couple questions for you. I bought a cheap one, of the click type, that I find pretty convenient because it is scaled in pound/feet and and kg/m. What's your experience with them? Also, is it important to calibrate them if you only use them once or twice a year? How do you calibrate them? I guess you have to compare with a known reference, but do the wrench have any kind of adjustable screw? Also, I guess that in order to achieve the right torque you have to hold the wrench by the handle. Does it really matter whether it is the far end or the short end. I would have to make some calculation, but I believe it would not mind where you apply the force, am I right?

Raul

[oldbiker]

Hi all, I check my torque wrench by mounting the square in the vice with the arm out horizontal and hang a 28 pound weight on the end. I find that it clicks with the scale set just below the 30 mark. That's good enough for me.

[Jay B]

Also when you're not using the wrench (clicker type) you should store it with the adjuster backed clear off so there's no tension on the internal spring.

[MRieck]

Scott,
   I just happen to calibrate TQ Wrenches for a living, for the last five years. I have to say if your wrench has been calibrated on at least bi-annual basis and used correctly it will not break or strip anything when the correct torque is applied for that item. One thing to think about is if the wrench has been dropped or misused it's calibration has more than likely been knocked out of whack. Also if you used any type extension, universal (angle) or crowsfoot (offset) they will need to be figured in to the equation because it will have a known effect on the torque value. You DO NOT want to lubricate, you always torque dry, lubrication will drive up the torque value on the item to which the torque has been applied. Another words torque a bolt dry to 30ft.lbs. and the TQ wrench will break at 30ft.lbs. and that is what you will have for an applied torque on the bolt. If you lubricated that same bolt even though the wrench would break saying the torque was 30ft.lbs. it would actually be a lot more than 30ft.lbs. and there is no known way to compensate for lubrication. The breaking type (click) is probably the most accurate and durable.

I disagree with the lack of lubricant in various applications. Bike head bolts or nuts require lube. Many( almost all) rod bolts insist on lubricant. Carrillo uses a heavy duty never seize compound, ARP bolts(ie Falicon rods) require either motor oil or their ARP lubricant, Crower rod bolts use moly lubricant. When it comes to aftermarket rod bolts a torque wrench isn't what you really want anyway. I use a stretch guage. The introduction of Locktite can change the torque value but many factory manuals recommend locking compounds AND put a torque value on the bolt or nut. Bottom line is follow the guidelines put forth by the manufacturer.

[mick750F]

   I've been using a bar type torque wrench for years without any problem. Am I wrenching on borrowed time? While I'd like to have a nice one I'd rather spend the money on parts or tools I don't already have. Is it time to bite the bullet and step up to a quality tool? Have I just been lucky so far in that the wrench hasn't caused me any known problems? Advice? Opinions?

Mike

[Dennis]

I've been using a bar type torque wrench for years without any problem. Am I wrenching on borrowed time? While I'd like to have a nice one I'd rather spend the money on parts or tools I don't already have. Is it time to bite the bullet and step up to a quality tool? Have I just been lucky so far in that the wrench hasn't caused me any known problems? Advice? Opinions?

Mike

NO! Those clickers are not any more accurate than what you have. Maybe less.
I always use the same type.

[dusterdude]

mrieck,i agree i was always told to use a little oil or whatever the manufacturer suggests(like arp rod bolt grease) and i prefer beam type torque wrenches too

[Henry Dorset Case]

I have a couple of the cheap-ish clicker types. both came with calibration certificates showing they were supposed to be accurate to within a reasonable percentage.  both get hardly any use, particularly in "mission critical" applications.

I remember reading a comment about torque wrenches by Kevin Cameron: something to the effect of that at the races he liked to use a deflection beam torque wrench because there were no moving parts to get screwed up in transit, and the readings were based on the properties of the material used in its construction, rather than a mechanical thing which had the potential (when living in a toolbox in a van driving from race to race and then in use under less than optimal conditions) of going wrong.  He said you could air drop a bending beam wrench into the race pits and it would be OK, not so much the other type though.

Kevin is my guru.....

[dusterdude]

yep,click type torque wrenches are lazy man torque wrenches

[brimar6]

 Ok, first let me start by letting you all know that the TQ wrenches I deal with are used in aircraft maintenance. Which means I deal with real tight tolerances (no pun intended), like as high as +-2% and lowest +-6%. I calibrate with a CDI2000, a machine that none of us would want to afford let alone the cost to keep it calibrated.
This may explain why I might sound a little anul retentive about this subject. I deal with all types of torque wrenches from the Deflecting Beam (best buy for the money) to the new Electronic Indicating style (keep your money for parts for the bike).
 
 Raul, Usually the less expensive wrenches are as good as the more expensive ones in the begining, but they wear out faster due to the lesser quality, both in parts and manufacturing, the key here being usage. Which in the torque calibration world equates to shorter calibration spans. So the better the wrench the longer the time between calibrations. There are wrenches out there with 3 month cal cycles and wrenches with 48 month cal cycles that I deal with. But, I can tell you that I have a Proto out in the barn in my tool box that is over 20 years old and I check it about every 18 months at work just because I can and it has never been worse than +-8%. I can say the same for wrenches I've checked for other guys at work. All breaking type wrenches have some form of adjustment and it is usually pretty simple. You are correct about checking against a known reference. Check out the reply from the "oldbiker" in this thread, it may sound primative but it should keep you in the ballpark and believe it or not that is how they calibrate the transducers I use on the CDI2000. To answer your last question, you are supposed to grip the torque wrench squarely on the handle which is usually near the end, if you deviate from that you will change the torque value. Also as "Jay B" stated, when not using your adjustable torque wrench you should back it off to 0 lbs. to relieve the internal tension.

 This is for "mick750F" and the rest of you guys out there who have the Deflecting Beam type torque wrenches KEEP them unless it is broken or bent. As far a thier accuracy goes they're really reliable and I feel you won't find a better wrench, in the last 5 years I have only seen one fail a calibration as compared to numerous failures of the other styles and that is usually due to wear. The reply from "Henry Dorset Case" says it all. An as far as using lubrications go you won't see me use any, but "MRieck"'s last sentance in his reply is fair advice especially if there is warranty riding on it.

[dpen]

After many years as a diesel mechanic I have developed "mechanics elbow".

This is when your elbow clicks when approaching the right torque, hence no need for a torque wench.

This works fine on trucks & plant but I have a good quality torque wrench that I use on my bikes as alloy into alloy bolts etc don't seem to like a 1 inch drive socket & a length of water pipe.

[Dennis]

I remember reading a comment about torque wrenches by Kevin Cameron: something to the effect of that at the races he liked to use a deflection beam torque wrench because ......the readings were based on the properties of the material used in its construction, rather than a mechanical thing which had the potential ....... of going wrong.

Kevin is my guru.....

 

And that is exactly why I use deflecting beam torque wrenches and why I made my previous comment that a clicker will be no more accurate and maybe less.

[bryanj]

Old biker is right about the hanging weight AS LONG AS you measure 1 foot from the centre of the square drive to the place you hang the weight

[Lumbee]

...I have the beam type...its been in the tool chest that I "aquired" in college after my land lord died.  I figured she didn't need the tools any more    Anywho, the only thing I torque is the cam caps and head bolts...and it seems to do the job...

[hymodyne]

mass produced bikes like these would also have issues with metallurgy which might affect peoples' experiences with torque wrenches.

[Trevor from Warragul]

One thing you all seem to be forgetting is that aluminium alloy does not age very well.  Torque values quoted in a manual may be okay for a brand new cylinder head but may not work on a thirty year old one!  I know this because I stripped 5 threads on my CB 350/4 head when using the correct setting.  I ended up helicoiling the ENTIRE head, and that fixed the problem.

[KB02]

My expiriences with TQ wrenches have been wth either the bending beam or click type. I will take the Click type any day of the week and twice on Sunday over the bending beam type. You can get FAR better accuracy, from my expirience, from the clicks (I say as I watch the neddle on the bending beam bounce around 5-10 foot pounds with the shake of my arm on the higher TQ applications)

As long as you know how to use them....
I once let a friend of mine borrow the wrench as he was doing some head work his bike. He though that the Click was just an indicator that he was getting cose and that it would just "give way" when he hit the right torqe. It finally gave way... when the bolt broke... both times... (some guys just don't learn    )

[Helo229]

I have a real quick question - whenever I use a beam-type torque wrench, I'll rest my thumb on the side of the needle. Not pressing on it, just enough that I can tell if it's steady or not (to avoid that bounce you get when applying pressure). I also tend to keep my whole arm loose and roll my torso to apply pressure, which seems to level out the bouce you get when you're straining with your arm. Would this significantly throw off my measurements?

I only ask, because I normally use a clicky-type wrench for quick jobs, where I'm only looking to get inside the ballpark. I break out my old beam-type wrench when I'm working on items I want to be damn near perfect on. (IE, clicky on most everything, and beam when I'm working on anything from the valve cover down)

[rhinoracer]

If  you don't trust your torque wrench, the correct procedure is the following: Torque the bolt 'til it strips then back-off 1/16th of a turn, that should put you in the ballpark

I've noticed variations with my click type but most are due to dry vs lubed threads, direct vs extension, hand and arm position, turning speed, quality of the threads, etc. I've never used other types.

[ofreen]

I have a real quick question - whenever I use a beam-type torque wrench, I'll rest my thumb on the side of the needle. Not pressing on it, just enough that I can tell if it's steady or not (to avoid that bounce you get when applying pressure). I also tend to keep my whole arm loose and roll my torso to apply pressure, which seems to level out the bouce you get when you're straining with your arm. Would this significantly throw off my measurements?

I agree that the beam type wrench is the most reliable, and if used correctly, is accurate and repeatable.  The needle must not touch the scale.  If it does, tweak it until it doesn't.  When torquing, the pivot on the handle grip must be centered.  You don't want the handle grip to pivot so that it is touching the beam as it will throw off the reading.  You are changing the leverage point if it is not centered.  Also, you need to be directly above the scale to avoid parallax error when reading it.  When you get your desired torque reading, the wrench must be moving.  You stop as you reach the desired value.  A beam type wrench takes some technique and a little more attention to detail to be accurate and repeatable.  That's why clickers are more popular.

[MoTo-BunnY]

If  you don't trust your torque wrench, the correct procedure is the following: Torque the bolt 'til it strips then back-off 1/16th of a turn, that should put you in the ballpark

I always heard torque it 'till it strips and then back it off a quarter turn. .. .but maybe that's only for Kneuten joints or muffler bearings?   

[754]

Scott, this may be part of the problem.

When you first crack loose a fastener, I like to go about a 1/4 -1/2 turn or so, then stop and go back & forth a bit, to allow anything stuck to the thread to release..then wind out fastener. By hand you can feel what is going on.

Threads should be clean before reassembly, and running a tap down can be helpful. Also if you beadblasted..be really sure you got it out of the thread...and everything else..

[Wheelhorse77]

Scott,
   I just happen to calibrate TQ Wrenches for a living, for the last five years. I have to say if your wrench has been calibrated on at least bi-annual basis and used correctly it will not break or strip anything when the correct torque is applied for that item. One thing to think about is if the wrench has been dropped or misused it's calibration has more than likely been knocked out of whack. Also if you used any type extension, universal (angle) or crowsfoot (offset) they will need to be figured in to the equation because it will have a known effect on the torque value. You DO NOT want to lubricate, you always torque dry, lubrication will drive up the torque value on the item to which the torque has been applied. Another words torque a bolt dry to 30ft.lbs. and the TQ wrench will break at 30ft.lbs. and that is what you will have for an applied torque on the bolt. If you lubricated that same bolt even though the wrench would break saying the torque was 30ft.lbs. it would actually be a lot more than 30ft.lbs. and there is no known way to compensate for lubrication. The breaking type (click) is probably the most accurate and durable.

I disagree with the lack of lubricant in various applications. Bike head bolts or nuts require lube. Many( almost all) rod bolts insist on lubricant. Carrillo uses a heavy duty never seize compound, ARP bolts(ie Falicon rods) require either motor oil or their ARP lubricant, Crower rod bolts use moly lubricant. When it comes to aftermarket rod bolts a torque wrench isn't what you really want anyway. I use a stretch guage. The introduction of Locktite can change the torque value but many factory manuals recommend locking compounds AND put a torque value on the bolt or nut. Bottom line is follow the guidelines put forth by the manufacturer.

Are any of the after market bike parts you assemble require TTY or are you referring to assembling other automotive components that require an angle gauge?

[BobbyR]

I work in a Federally regulated industry and like Aircraft our Torque wrencheds need to be certified every six months. I teach torquing to our new hires. We use clicker wrenches and a few statements were made which may be partly true.

1. Every bolt has a wet and dry torque. A plated bolt has a different value than an unplated bolt since the plating increases thread dimension.

2. A clicker wrench should be stored at the lowest setting and not zero or at the last torque you used.

3. Many do not realize you need to hold the handle on the indicated spot and smoothly pull down not jerk the handle.

4. On a clicker wrench many people feel the click and keep pressing, you should let the wrench rebound in your hand at the click.

5.The maximum torque rating of a bolt should be only 80% of it's braking point. 

6. One of the problems today is bogus bolts made offshore, when you buy a grade 8 it can test out between 4 and 6 and they break.

& When you torque a bolt the last two turns should be done with the torque wrench. I have observed guys hit a bolt with an impact wrench and then put the torque wrench on it.

9. I personally like using a mild Loctite on all bolts on my bike since there is vibration and it helps insulate the dissimilar metals.

10. If I am bolting into aluminum I chase the treads before I put the bolt in. 

[canttuckmyshirt]

Can anyone recommend a brand of clicker? I had a Craftsman fail in under two years (stored correctly, never dropped/abused, used 5 times). They only cover is under a 1 year warranty and don't offer a repair service. I will not buy any craftsman products that aren't covered by their lifetime warranty.

Any recommendations? Thanks!

[bill440cars]

       I have a Snap-On 1/2dr torque wrench that is a ratcheting clicker type that I bough new back in 71'. I've always kept it in the heavy duty plastic case and I've always backed the tension off, when not in use.  I got it checked a couple of times when I worked in a Civil Service Shop on ARMY equipment and was always within tolerance. I was told that there really wasn't much use in getting it checked too often, since I take such good care of it. BTW, it still looks like new (remember, it is a 1971' model). Every now and then I have had it checked (last time was about 4yrs ago) and it was still looking good. I use this one for most of my torquing and I've got a Craftsman 3/8"dr beam type for smaller amounts of torque (my Snap-On has a range starting at about 35ftlbs). That's my experience with torque wrench.

                                 Later on, Bill    

[bert96]

I have 3 torques wrench 1/4  3/8 and 1/2dr  all Proto.I bought proto because my dad(he's a mechanic)  he have one for almost 30 years without any problem.I think when it comes  to have a precise reading you should pay more for a good tool.