Topic: Leaded fuel? 110 octane vs unleaded

[shizzomynizzo]

My dad has a 1975 Norton 850 commando that uses leaded fuel. He uses a lead additive when he cannot get leaded fuel.
In the owners manual of our bikes, leaded fuel is what it was made to run on, but it says that high octane unleaded can be used as well.

My question is that when I put a leaded fuel in the tank, is the bike supposed to run better? 

I drove my 550 up to the gas station with my dad and his Norton, where he gets his race fuel. (Sunoco GT) I live around the detroit area and many gas station have 110 leaded race fuel. (sunoco has GT and Mobile has turbo blue) I filled the tank up it only took 2 gallons, (5.49 per gallon).

Anyway, the bike seems to run soooo much better on the leaded fuel.    It idles perfectly, accelerates smoother, and has much better response in every gear.

When i was running premium fuel, it would idle anywhere between 900 and 1200, there was hesitation upon acceleration, and response was a bit slow. I know the reason for this is that I need to sync my carbs, I have ordered the adapters for my manometer, but they won't be here 'til saturday.


Is the leaded fuel better for the motor?


Any input is appreciated!

[I Zombie]

aside from the lead actin as a lubercant i don't remember there being much of  a difference

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Lead helped lube the valves.  Honda anticipated the NoLead requirement and built their engines for it. High octane shouldn'n matter and as long as your compression ratio is below about 9:1, the higher octain is a waste of $$.  But if your perception is that these factors matter, then more power to ya!

[bwaller]

What the hell is leaded fuel? 

[shizzomynizzo]

I don't know if the gas itself is making the bike run better, or the higher temperature it's burning at is cleaning the carbs out. I'll se when i fill up again, I am not going to pay 5.50 a gallon when I can get premium for 2.45


If gas goes back up to 4.50 a gallon, I might consider running the leaded a few times, but until then.... I'll save the $$$

[cb650]

I think its fuel you can write with.  Yes I know its not pencil lead but graphite.
Lead wont hurt unless you have a catalatic converter.  

[ev0lution7]

uh?? new flash when gas was 4.50 a gallon my friends were paying close to $8-$9 a gallon for race fuel! some were almost $11

[BobbyR]

I don't know if the gas itself is making the bike run better, or the higher temperature it's burning at is cleaning the carbs out. I'll se when i fill up again, I am not going to pay 5.50 a gallon when I can get premium for 2.45


If gas goes back up to 4.50 a gallon, I might consider running the leaded a few times, but until then.... I'll save the $$$

Actually the higher octane would burn slower. Lower octane tends to burn faster, hence the detonation. Your race fuel may have low or no Ethanol which does make a difference. I was able to pick up some non ethanol fuel in Pa. The bike did run better. Now they want to up the Ethanol to 15% which the automakers say will make the cars run poorly.

[JS550]

Due, I live in Southgate & gotta see your dads Norton!

[fmctm1sw]

If gas goes back up to 4.50 a gallon, I might consider running the leaded a few times, but until then.... I'll save the $$$

Where on earth are you getting leaded gas these days?

[mlinder]

There is leaded racing gas... but I was not aware they were allowed to pump it into vehicles at stations anywhere in the US.

[shizzomynizzo]

Due, I live in Southgate & gotta see your dads Norton!

Yeah the bike is pristine!! He bought it new when he was 15 and it only has 11,000 miles!!! White with the red and blue stripes circling the tank. 100% original. It's his baby, and he only rides it once a year, then drains it and it goes back in the den at his house (the den is his "motorcycle room")

Someday it will be mine 

There is leaded racing gas... but I was not aware they were allowed to pump it into vehicles at stations anywhere in the US.

You're absolutely right, not supposed to be pumped into street cars and bikes... but I am in michigan, and police around here don't care. When I was pulled over for drag racing a crotch rocket in my camaro, the officer didn't pull me over to ticket me, he just wanted to see my engine because he was wondering how I was keeping up with the bike down telegraph!  Plus I don't think they can tell what is in your tank unless they see you pumping! The gas station workers don't car, they get more $$$ per gallon

If gas goes back up to 4.50 a gallon, I might consider running the leaded a few times, but until then.... I'll save the $$$

Where on earth are you getting leaded gas these days?

Leaded gas is sold by many gas stations, you just have to look for it, Mobile sells it under the name Turbo Blue and Sunoco sells their variation Sunoco GT. There is generally a pump away from the rest for this, kinda like the kerosene pumps at some stations. In Detroit, and within an hour of the city, I can find a station every 10 miles or so that has it. Not every single station, but about half the sunoco's and about a quarter of the mobile's sell it!

[shizzomynizzo]

Plus any gas station near a drag strip or other track will carry it. I go to milan dragway with the camaro, and every gas station within 15 minutes of the track has it.

Not that anyone should put any in your bike, because it is illegal!!! 

[BobbyR]

I am not sure you can get it in the Peoples Repubic of NY. If I could I would run a couple of tankfuls thu the engine to get some lead in the valve stems.

[IHWillys]

Aside from the octane rating increase(it also narrows the gap between research and motor results IIRC), lead provides a cushioning effect, not lubrication, for the exhaust seats in particular.  This "cushion" of lead delays the erosion of the seat and valve faces.  With hardened seats and high-quality valves there's no benefit to having the lead there aside from the octane rating increase if that's needed/desired.

It has a residual effect in that running lead in one tank of fuel will leave a layer of protecting lead on the seats which will remain for quite some time after the fuel has been replaced with unleaded.

Ken

[BobbyR]

Now this is a hoot:

Did lead cause global cooling?

Letter abstract

Nature Geoscience 2, 333 - 336 (2009)
Published online: 19 April 2009 | doi:10.1038/ngeo499

There is an Erratum (21 May 2009) associated with this Letter.

Subject Category: Atmospheric science
Inadvertent climate modification due to anthropogenic lead

Daniel J. Cziczo1,2, Olaf Stetzer2, Annette Worringen3, Martin Ebert3, Stephan Weinbruch3, Michael Kamphus4, Stephane J. Gallavardin2,4, Joachim Curtius4,5, Stephan Borrmann4,6, Karl D. Froyd7, Stephan Mertes8, Ottmar Möhler9 & Ulrike Lohmann2

Top of page

Aerosol particles can interact with water vapour in the atmosphere, facilitating the condensation of water and the formation of clouds. At temperatures below 273 K, a fraction of atmospheric particles act as sites for ice-crystal formation. Atmospheric ice crystals—which are incorporated into clouds that cover more than a third of the globe1—are thought to initiate most of the terrestrial precipitation2. Before the switch to unleaded fuel last century, the atmosphere contained substantial quantities of particulate lead; whether this influenced ice-crystal formation is not clear. Here, we combine field observations of ice-crystal residues with laboratory measurements of artificial clouds, to show that anthropogenic lead-containing particles are among the most efficient ice-forming substances commonly found in the atmosphere3. Using a global climate model, we estimate that up to 0.8 W m-2 more long-wave radiation is emitted when 100% of ice-forming particles contain lead, compared with when no particles contain lead. We suggest that post-industrial emissions of particulate lead may have offset a proportion of the warming attributed to greenhouse gases.
Top of page

   1. Atmospheric Sciences and Global Change Division, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, 902 Battelle Blvd, Richland, Washington 99354, USA
   2. Institute for Atmospheric and Climate Science, ETH Zurich, Universitätstrasse 16, CH-8092 Zürich, Switzerland
   3. Institute for Applied Geosciences, Technical University Darmstadt, Schnittspahnstras zlige 9, D-64287 Darmstadt, Germany
   4. Institute for Atmospheric Physics, Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz, Joh.-Joachim-Becher-Weg 21, D-55099 Mainz, Germany
   5. Institute for Atmospheric and Environmental Sciences, Goethe-University Frankfurt am Main, Altenhöferallee 1, D-60438 Frankfurt am Main, Germany
   6. Particle Chemistry Department, Max Planck-Institute for Chemistry, D-55128 Mainz, Germany
   7. Chemical Sciences Division, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, 325 Broadway Ave., Boulder, Colorado 80305, USA
   8. Leibniz-Institute for Tropospheric Research, D-04318 Leipzig, Germany
   9. Institute for Meteorology and Climate Research, Forschungszentrum Karlsruhe, Postfach 3640, D-76021 Karlsruhe, Germany

[JS550]

So something good about the Dirty Glove! We can get high test at our gas stations! That & the pollution bubble that covers south of D town,were I live, keeps the really bad weather, hot or cold ,away! Im going to start a paper route right now, so I can get some 110 octane.....

[BlackMax]

let's see,

1) the idea of "lead" (tetraethyl lead or TEL) lubricating valve seats, has been pretty well shown to be a myth.  I've been all through it, and it seems fairly conclusive that it did little or nothing to help reduce valve seat wear or hammering.  

2)  "Lead" or tetraethyl lead (TEL) did a great job at increasing octane, and thus was an effective anti-knock agent.

The question is, what octane does your motor require?  Anything below 10.5:1 is going to do just fine with high-test pump gas.    Anything above 10.5:1 may require higher octane.   I recall the older commandos being like 10:1?  In that case, 91 octane is fine.  No additives are ANYTHING else would be needed.

110 octane is pretty stout.  This would only be required if compression is 14:1 or so, or hardcore turbocharging is being done.   There is 110 octane AV gas labeled as "low lead".  Don't be fooled.  This means it has the same amount of TEL as "leaded" pump gas from the old days.  There is also 100 octane unleaded.  

[IHWillys]

...
1) the idea of "lead" (tetraethyl lead or TEL) lubricating valve seats, has been pretty well shown to be a myth.  I've been all through it, and it seems fairly conclusive that it did little or nothing to help reduce valve seat wear or hammering.  
...

Well, I'd "been all through it" about 20 years ago and came to the opposite conclusion but that was 20 years ago.  However, science marches on and leaves anyone not "keeping up" behind so I'm certainly open to reforming my knowledge on the subject.  Will have to spend some time sometime doing just that.

So TEL in the fuel and a resulting lead deposit has no affect on reducing valve seat recession due to the micro welding of the valve and seat under high heat/load conditions eh?  If so, many of us were hoodwinked years ago then, installing hardened seats in fear of what running unleaded was going to do to our soft iron heads.

Ken