Topic: 1975 Honda CB400 Four Project - Rookie

[RickB]

Hi guys,

Thanks again for the support. Here's the update on the serial number drama. The paperwork from the dealer in South Australia turned up. It had only the details that were on the bike. However it did have the dealers license number on it, which will be good to know.



So with this proof of purchase I took the bike for an inspection at VicRods (the Australian version of the DMV). They inspected the bike and promptly told me they suspect it is stolen. They don't believe that engine number is correct and the frame number is obviously filed down. I was told to try lifting the obviously dubious engine number off the bike and seeing what the number beneath it says. Of course once I do that, it is also filed down...







On the back of the dubious serial number is "de in W. Germany". Obviously West Germany ceased to exists in 1990, so that's a slight clue as to when the bike might have been tampered with (unless the plate is old, either way, it doesn't change anything for me).





I tried 400 wet-and-dry on this to see if I could get anything more out of it. Nope. All I could get were the initial CB400 and then part of the F. I could try acid or getting it x-rayed, but I think it's obvious I'm not supposed to know these numbers for some reason.

So... I have to take the bike to the vehicle theft Police squad. They will inspect the bike and make a call on whether to issue 'surrogate serial numbers' or confiscate the bike immediately as stolen property. I don't yet know whether they impound it for a set time and if no one comes forward they return it to me, or if it goes to auction after the set time. Either way I suspect the licensed dealer I bought it from is in trouble for selling what appear to be stolen goods.

Knowing this, I called the dealer and explained the situation. I said unless he can provide a solution that I think is acceptable (ie, a refund for the bike and transport costs) I will be taking the bike to the police and they can talk to him. I don't know what repercussions this will have on his license and ability to do business, but I'm hoping it will be worth more than $1000 to him and he'll refund my money.

If the police inspect the bike and determine that either it has legitimate paperwork somewhere, or it's not worth them looking into it further and issue me with surrogate numbers, I'd like to keep the bike and continue on as planned with the correct paper work. However, I can't see the dealer allowing it to go that far, I don't think it is worth the risk of him getting investigated. I think the only thing he can do is offer a refund and hope I forget the whole thing. My other option is any protection I have under the South Australia consumer protection legislation, which I'll investigate tomorrow.

So the balls in the dealers court, I'll keep you all updated.

Thanks again for all the help and support, it's been a great help.

Rick.

[J.Webster Designs]

sorry to hear about your troubles there RickB. I hope you get everything sorted out. If it infact stolen i hope the dealer gets what is coming to him.

[RickB]

Hi all,

Ok so I spent all morning on the phone. I called my local police station, they basically didn't want to deal with it. They just hand balled it to the South Australian police, saying they'll have all the records blah blah. So I called the South Australian Records Response Section again and had them pass me up the chain. They were quite helpful.

They were able to look back at the history of the bike all the way back to when it was first purchased back in 1979. Apparently the bike is a '79, not a '77. I can live with that. Anyway as far as the South Australian Police are concerned, this bike is fine. It was repossessed a one stage, but apart from that it is clean.

They never had records of it ever having a frame number other than CB400F or the engine number CB400FE-1052343 and it was always in the same red color that I can see beneath the tank. It has been registered using these details quite a number of times, and according to them, could be registered in South Australia tomorrow if I so pleased. I asked them why the numbers would be filled off and they didn't seem to know or care.

So I've requested through a  freedom of information application (a PD360 form) to have the history of the bike released to me. It cost me $26.75 and can take up to 30 days. I called VicRoads and confirmed with them that if I have this information, will I be able to get surrogate numbers issued and have my bike registered. They said that as long as I can prove it has been registered before in another state, I can register it. So I might try and get proof of that from the South Australian Transit people just to back up my police history information.

Now the only problem I can forsee here is that if the VicRoads people say, 'well this could be any bike, how do you know its the one the police think it is? Because the engine number was obviously glued onto a filled off engine number'. Well I don't know how else I can prove that other than it had a registration plate on it that corresponded with an engine number that was on the bike. Could it be that this bike has had it's serial numbers swapped for a similar bike with legitimate history? How can I tell the exact year of my bike? Maybe there will be an inconsistency with what the police have? On the other hand, do I care? If the cops say it's clean and don't care about it, and I can prove to VicRoads that it's good and get surrogate numbers, then should I care otherwise?

Any thoughts? I'd really like to have the bike x-rayed or something to see what those original number are. Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?

Rick.

[Hush]

See Rick, not only do you get a project bike you also get an interesting provenonce. 
There is some way to bring those numbers up, I've seen it done on TV with stolen cars and filed down gun reg numbers.
But if the cops say it's all good just go with it.

[J.Webster Designs]

I would say that if you can get it all in your name.. then I would go with it. To me, it sounds like they swapped the numbers with a similar bike.

[Rsnip988]

Wow what a Fuster Cluck.   Sorry to hear about the run around on your registration stuff.  however you get the bike and the mystery & intrigue

good luck & welcome

RKS

[RickB]

Yep, red tape is the last thing I thought I'd have trouble with on this bike. Forget engine problems, I'll be happy to deal with those issues when I'm finally allowed to start trying to fix that! I sent my 'freedom of information' request off yesterday, so now I play the waiting game. It's one piece of paper being sent to a government office in another state asking for detailed information from 1979, what could possibly go wrong? 

[RickB]

Hi all,

I got an encouraging message from a forum member here and thought I'd update you all.

Since my last update, I've been waiting for paperwork from the South Australian Police. That actually came on Monday of this week, almost 2 months since I applied for it. I have an appointment with Vic Roads again on Friday, where they will no doubt give me a referral to the Vehicle Theft Squad. I'm told they should have done this back when I first went to Vic Roads. So this last 2 months waiting for paperwork was a waste (although I suspect me now having the registration history will come in handy later on). Provided I get the referral, the Theft Squad will have my bike for up to 3 weeks. If it is not proven to be stolen, I am given 90 days to then have the bike registered. Of course the bike is no where close to being in a road worthy condition, so I asked the Vic Roads person what then? She said, well maybe I should restore it first then get the Theft Squad inspection. I said, but what if it is stolen, I'll loose the bike. She said, that's a risk you'll have to take and next time check the serial numbers better. So that was helpful. So my plan now is to get the Theft Squad to ok the bike, try to work to the 90 day deadline, if not, I'll just have to get another referral from Vic Roads and go through the process again. Fun.

In the mean time, I went into this marvelous bike store in downtown Melbourne called Modak and drooled over English bikes and all the parts that must just be hidden away in there. That shop has an amazing feel about it. Anyway, I bought a drag bar ($40) and a set of 'cafe' grips ($16) from the rad old lady. Only because it made me feel like I was doing something for my 'rebuild'!

I've also been chasing down a lead that my old mans barber gave him about a guy named Andrew that used to live in the Mornington Peninsula area and used to race CB400Fours and apparently has hundreds of them for parts. Although apparently he's moved out to Gippsland and the number I have doesn't seem to work anymore. I must find this guy!

Oh and I had a friend design a patch for my 'gang'! Ha, there's four of us, one of us with a bike that runs and three that actually have licenses. So I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, but it's been a lot of fun!

I'll be sure to update the thread with more information once I actually have some decent progress on the paperwork front.

Rick.

[RickB]

Hi all,

Well I'll be... After months of getting the run around with my filed off serial numbers, and the bike being with the Police Organized Motor Vehicle Theft Squad for forensic testing, I finally got this letter in the mail late last week!



So I'm in the clear! At long last, I can start my restoration! I dropped the bike off to the police a few days after my last post. This came in the mail on Thursday last week. So it took 4 months to get a response. Madness.



And today, I picked up where I left off. The engine has to come out. So I spent most of the day in my neighbours back shed (now the 'gangs' HQ) doing just that. That's his CB200 on the left. His engine is at the engineers getting rebuilt.





The wiring harness starting to come out.



I'm not sure how to disconnect the two wrapped wires that go around the frame to the right side of the bike? The cables all came out fine, but the wiring that goes to the switch blocks doesn't appear to disconnect anywhere. Surely I don't have to disassemble the entire switch blocks or take the headlight assembly off to get the switch blocks through?



I tried Idaho Doug's trick of laying the bike on it's side and lifting it, not the motor. Then I realized I should have followed the manual to the point because I hadn't taken the oil sump off. So I had to unscrew the 11 bolts holding that on.





Of course the last bolt is recessed high up in a fin on the oil sump. I have no idea what tool you need to get that out, but no spanner I had or could think of would be slim enough to fit in there. Then I forced it, and one of the fins snapped clean off. #$%*. I'm so disappointed in myself. Either I get a new oil sump cover (how on earth will I find that without having to buy a complete engine?!), or try and fix the fin back on. Does that mean aluminum welding? There's no way glue is going to hold that on, it's on the leading edge of the bottom of the bike. So upset.



Finally got the oil sump off. I was surprised to see no signs of metal or other scary bits in amongst the old oil. Considering a mechanic I took the bike t all those months ago told me the bike 'had a big end noise', I'm taking that as a good sign. Rightly or wrongly.



But it was this little bastard got the better of me today. The bolt is worn to the point of being round. I couldn't get it off, I tried files, hammers, spanners and whatever else I could find. I'll need to go buy a pair of grips tomorrow and see if that'll do it. The metal is so soft, I think it'll just strip more. This oil filter needs to come off so the engine will come out of the frame. Any ideas on where to find a new bolt to replace this one?



And finally for laughs, here's the patch I had a friend draw up for my 'gang'. I thought the name 'The Vinnies' is appropriate because the 4 of us bike mates all had some sort of VIN number problems (hence the comical 'someone most likely stole it' line). I wanted the skull to have a dapper 1920's feel to it. George Clooney in Leatherheads was my inspiration actually. It suits the 4 of us in the 'gang'. Now I've got to find someone that can turn this drawing into a shoulder patch. It's proving difficult to find. Can anyone recommend me someone that can make limited-run patches? I'll need some help colouring and working out what kind of a background and shape to 'mount' it on too?

Well that was it for today. Tomorrow is Sunday, I hope to finally get the engine out and then start getting the steering assembly and finally the wheels off. I want to try and get the frame blasted and powder-coated this week; before everyone goes on Christmas break.

Rick.

[Jaredl2055]

Alot of bikes have broken fins for whatever reason id say no big deal as long as nothing is leaking haha. Im glad to se you stuck with it tho.

[RickB]

The donk is out! Yep, I got the engine out and the frame stripped. Tomorrow it's off to the powdercoaters.



So that oil filter bolt just needed a bit of powertool action. I had to cut the head down to fit a 10mm ring spanner over it. I already found a replacement (400fourbits.co.uk), so no worries there. If I could buy complete set of stainless bolts steel bolts for this bike, I would. I've seen some around for the engine casing etc. Should I get phillips-head or allen-key? What's better? I'm certainly not putting all these corroded soft metal screw back on.



View up into the engine. You can see where the sump filter is connected. I had to take that off to get it the engine out.



Same with the carbies. Need to rebuild and clean these suckers. Will do that when the frame and engine are away.



I had to take the breather cover off too. There's not a lot of room in the frame to move. A lesson learned with this, follow every step of the manual. You can't shortcut.









Next I got the rear drum brake off. Not knowing what to look for, is this safe? Should I replace the pads? What about the bearings? Obviously I'm going to give the whole thing a good clean.





Trying to lube the forks out of their rings. Hard work without a proper stand/work bench.



Nest to come off was the forks and steering assembly. I need to replace the fork end caps/bolts/covers. They're rusty a crap, plus I had to band 'em a bit to get the forks loose.



The headlight mounting bracket. So bad, it really seems like a crappy design. I'll probably buy a new one. Anyone have some good ideas for an aftermarket one? Both a bracket for the bucket a the indicators. Fork ears? Who makes good ones of those for a cafe project?



Look what my friend Rhys caught. I'm going to clean this, reroute as best as possible and try and heat shrink instead of electrical tape everything. I'm anal about clean electronics, it's my computer tech side coming out.



Didn't realize the headstem bearings weren't captive. The promptly ejected everywhere when I took the seal off. Nevermind, I wanted to rebuild this anyway. The least I can do to ensure a safer bike is rebuild the steering I reckon'.



For the life of me I couldn't get this center stand off. I undid the screws and pins, but the inner tube wouldn't give. For some reason the dis-assembly isn't in the manual, so I couldn't check to see if I was missing anything. Never mind, I was going to powder coat the center stand anyways (too chrome is expensive for a part I don't really mind being black) so I'll just leave it in place and powdercoat it and deal with the cracks.





Cleaning up the frame a little bit. I cut off the seat lock (was broken anyways) and took off some redundant wiring hangers. I left the rear pegs and silencer mount, I figure I might need those. I wanted to weld on a bar around the tail like Idaho Doug did, but I don't know what seat I'm going to use so I'll deal with it later if I have to.

Now the frame and every other bit I could think of to get powder coated is in the back of my car. I'm dropping it off tomorrow. I'm hoping I can get the engine hydro blasted too, but I'm not sure if I have it ready yet. Plus I need a new alternator cap and I don't want the colour to mismatch.

On a side note, does anyone know if a CB350F tank will fit on a CB400F? I really like the look of the 350F tank, it has the knee divets and Norton-esque lines. I'm just not sure if it'll a) physically fit and b) look good, it might be too small. Anyone know, I'm gonna buy one on ebay I think.

Well that's it for today. I feel like once I get the powder coating done I'll be in a much better position, as I'll actually be on the way up so to speak. Happy days.

Rick.

P.S. Thanks for the help guys. I'll just JB weld on the fin or leave it, I'm not as concerned about it now that I've slept on it.

[Scotty J]

Just found the thread and - Wow.  The BS you had to put up with.  I would've had that thing back at the dealer's lot as soon as I found the VIN ground down.  But at least you're back on track and making progress!

So you want to do a patch?  I've had LOTS of patches made for my Buell club and I can tell you that the only way to have them done is to have a lot of them made.  It's been my experience that the volume of the order is inversely proportional to the cost.  Get a quote with somebody (I've had over 500 patches made through www.patchsupply.com - good folks), then get your riding buddies (sorry, "mates") to share the cost.  Depending on how many you have done up, your personal cost should be around $20-$30 (USD).  Then everybody in the group winds up with around 10 patches.  What to do with the extras?  Give 'em away, trade 'em, whatever.  I've given more to other Buell riders than I've held onto.  If you have them made, I'd be interested in supporting the cause.  Kickass design!

Here http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/37/331090.html?1258214169 is how I managed my Group's patch.

Sorry for the detour... back to the show.

[kslrr]

Good for you for not giving up.  I'm surprised no one brought up that there is a good chance that the engine cases had been replaced and the correct engine VIN applied using a piece of scrap aluminum that came from Germany.

[Madhun67]

wow this gives me inspiration for my $600.00 cb400f,that wil not run right now.Thanks!

[noexit]

Of course the last bolt is recessed high up in a fin on the oil sump. I have no idea what tool you need to get that out, but no spanner I had or could think of would be slim enough to fit in there. Then I forced it, and one of the fins snapped clean off. #$%*. I'm so disappointed in myself. Either I get a new oil sump cover (how on earth will I find that without having to buy a complete engine?!), or try and fix the fin back on. Does that mean aluminum welding? There's no way glue is going to hold that on, it's on the leading edge of the bottom of the bike. So upset.

A 1/4" drive 10mm socket with an extension will reach bolts like that in the future. Also, try to avoid the temptation of using adjustable spanners. You're much more likely to round off the heads of bolts.

All that mess with the SN sounds like a nightmare. I'm sure there is some sort of shenanigans going on, but being as old as it is, police don't seem to care much.

[Hush]

Glad to see this project is back on track.
To remove the centre stand just slacken those bolts either side and slide it one way then wiggle it back the other.
I hope you are going to replace those horrible old loose bearings with a set of tapered bearings, you can get the originals and some consider them adequate but I'd go with a set from Allballz and then you don't have to worry about them for a very long time.
I'm still pretty impressed with a youngster taking on one of these old bikes when there are so many newer Jap possible project bikes available.

[Holdingfast]

hi RickB, hello everyone,

It's been so good to read your story and to read people's comments a. cause its been an interesting read, and b. cuz I'm about to buy a 1979 CB 550 K (fingers crossed) and I'm a total Rookie on a tight budget as well.. though, like you, confident that it'll work out just fine somehow..

So thanks for the encouragment, and keep posting how its going!

[RickB]

Hi guys,

So I got my frame back from the powder-coaters. Besides a few bearings I accidentally left in place and the battery box rubbers, all looks fantastic. I'll take some photos in the morning; tomorrow is a bike work day!

But I have a few quick questions I need help answering. Forgive me if they're stupid but I'm buying parts and want to make sure I'm getting things that will fit.

1. Can I use fork ears (headlight clamps) on a 400 Four? The stock headlight bracket is terrible in my opinion and I want to use something like this.

2. Are headlight buckets standard sizes? Mine is broken and I want to replace it with a chrome one. Can I buy one form another model Honda. Like a 750, 550 or 500? Maybe a 350? I'm thinking something like this.

3. Will a CB350 Four tank fit a 400 Four? I like the knee divets and lines of the 350 Four tank. I worry that whilst it may physically fit the frame, it will look undersized. But I don't know for sure about either.

4. Bearings. I want to replace all bearings on the bike, just to be safe. I see tapered steering bearings talked about. Do I need to do any modifications to make these work? Do I want to use them? There's a bearing store near my house, can I use any good quality bearing or do I need motorbike specific ones? Even for things like pivot arm etc?

I have so many more, but I think this is what I can get too tomorrow.

Thanks guys, more photos to come.
Rick.

P.S. I bought a heap of heat shrink and plan to get the wiring harness back on tomorrow.

[Joel]

The 400 has a different size headlight than the 750.  I believe it is 6 3/8" diameter.  I think the 750, and probably the 500 and 550 are the more common 7".  My 400 came with some strange utility lamp wired as the headlamp so I found a used 750 bucket on eBay.  Personally, I think the size looks just fine on the bike but the original light probably wasn't much smaller anyway.  I'm currently using some fork ear brackets with my headlight and it works pretty well.  Here are a couple of pics where you can see the headlight proportions.  Here the light is sitting lower on the forks before I moved it up and tightened the clamps.

[Hush]

I'd def replace the steering head bearings with tapered bearings, I used ALLBALZ and many on here have as well with happy results.
Unsure about all the other bearings? The swing arm is on a type of shim rather than a bearing.
For the tank question you would have to go borrow one from the wreckers and try it unless someone on here has used this swap successfully....you may be in virgin territory ha ha amazing eh, there are still some things we haven't tried yet with these bikes.
Headlight, find one you like, buy the ears with it if you can, experiment a bit, it's half the fun.

[RickB]

Thanks guys,

@ Joel: Thanks for the information. This is most helpful, a fellow 400 Four owner having gone through the same questions I am. Great stuff! Now I have to find a chrome headlight bucket that will work. I like the classic 7" one here, but I'm not sure what it looks like from behind. I bet it's fine, but I wish I had more photos. I do like the look of this one, but maybe a bit expensive?

@ Hush: Thanks for the advice on bearings. I wonder if I'd be better off buying a tapered bearing kit form David Silver Spares. By the look of that kit I need some spacers and can't just drop in a tapered bearing. You're right about the swing arm, it takes a bushing, not a bearing. I think the one I had in it got toasted by the powder coating, so I doubt I'll find that anywhere in my area. Might have to add that to the David Silver Spares order too. As for the tank, I already bought one and am expecting it any day now. So at least there's a chance it may work. I'll let you know!

Ok here are some photos from today.



Powder coated frame. Semi-gloss black. It's not as shiny as the flash makes it out to be. All the other parts are in a box. It came out fantastic. Yes that's the center stand powder coated in black. I can't afford to get anything re-chromed.



Cleaned and labeled wire harness! This was intimidating at first, rewarding once I got stuck into it. It's so good to have that out of the way. I'm going to strip the tattered electrical tape on it and heat shrink it tomorrow. It'll look good.



Before and after of a little wire-brush on the drill and some petrol on a rag. Looks good. Not brand new shiny or anything, but can't afford new everything. Just restored and maintained is what I'm going for.

So tomorrow I hope to get the swing arm back on, battery box remounted and wire harness on and in place. That might be hard to do considering all the rubber washes on the battery box perished and I don't have swing arm bushings, but maybe I can find a rubber place or something.

Rick.

[byfbo]

Lookin good.  You've got some tenacity there.... keep it up.

[hoodellyhoo]

Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure a 350 tank will fit on a 400. The frames are basically the same and I think the tank mounts are in the same spot.

[HedNut]

Hey RickB!  Just read through this project for the first time... I'm truely inspired by all the antics you had to go thru...and shame on those mechanics telling you it was a piece of S*&T.    I had once spent every last dime of my savings to buy an old car in college...spent 3 weeks working on it in the parking lot to prepare it for a mechanical fitness check.... took it to get "certified"...and when I went to pick it up the mechanic shook his head, said "Why on earth did you buy this piece of ka-ka" and told me I wont be driving it home....call a tow truck.   I was bent between punching him in the throat at crying like a baby.  The next day...on the whim of a buddy we pulled it to another garage.... THAT mechanic suggested I get a CV boot replaced but other than that she was in good shape!  That car lasted 3 years, over 130 000 km's (many road trips) and the only thing I ever did was change the oil...then one day the trans made loud noise and I lost all gears but 1st and Reverse.  Anyways....I digress

VERY PROUD OF YOU MAN! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! IT LOOKS AWESOME! CONGRATS ON GETTING YOUR HANDS ON AN OL' HONDA.... these bikes rock!

Cheers!

[RickB]

Thanks so much guys.

Would you believe it, I found an All Balls tapered bearing kit for my bike! I went to the All Balls website, found the distributor called them who them put me onto a stockist in a town about 45 minutes from my house. Got a tapered bearing kit, front and rear wheel bearings and fork seals. The tapered kit was expensive compared to the US listed prices, but with shipping it would be close. Now I get to rebuild my steering and forks over the Christmas break. Yes!

Still can't find and/or decide on a headlight setup to go with. Anyone got any suggestions on an all chrome 7" headlight bucket that will work with cafe racer style headlight brackets?

Rick.