Topic: sluggish steering

[stingray]

Hey,
As I mentioned in the "open" forum, I started my '76 550 the other day for the first time since it has laid dorment since 1982.  It was a real kick to hear it run!
I wasn't about to ride it all over town, seeing that it needs a lot of work to get it back to it's original glory.  However, I had to take a little ride, I'm sure that you understand and forgive me.  Rides really nice, smooth and responsive.  One thing though, the steering seemed a bit "heavy", although I sense no notchy-ness in the steering head when on the center stand, it almost feels like it has a flat tire in front (which it does not).  Since this is my first Honda over 200cc, I was wondering if these bikes have heavy steering?  Or can it be attributed to not being on the road for so long?

Thanks

[MetalHead550]

Is the front break dragging at all?  What kinda shape are the forks in, nice and firm or mushy?  I think these bike handle quite well.  I can slalom the yellow dashes on an asphalt road doing 45mph and Ive scraped the kick stand and pegs several times.   I tend to ride it at its limits at low speeds.

[stingray]

Front break is in-operable at present due to front cylinder missing parts.  Wheel turns freely.
The front suspension seems firm.  I didn't think it would be reported that it had slow steering so I think that it has a lot to do with old fork oil and perhaps sticky fork travel.
I'm hopeful that it is nothing serious.

[Bob Wessner]

What's the condition of the tire, how about the tire pressure, is it correct?

[ditchen]

I have noticed on mine even after replacing the tires, once you start turning with the bars a little, it wanst to hook and keep turning on you. I actually have to push back on the bar to keep it from doing a full lock. My front end feels good and I replaced the fluids but notheing else. The brake appears to be working ok as well. I figure I woud get a little more seat time and do more reearch before I start tunning the suspension.

You defiantly feel more weight on the front end more so then my other newer bikes for sure.

[stingray]

I have noticed on mine even after replacing the tires, once you start turning with the bars a little, it wanst to hook and keep turning on you. I actually have to push back on the bar to keep it from doing a full lock. 
 

Yes!  This is what I was trying to explain!! 
The tire is in good condition.  What should the T.P. be for the original front tire?

[ditchen]

Per my owners manual on my 75 750 it is 28 front and 30 rear up to 200 lbs load on the bike with stock tires. I have a 16 hog wheel in the back and running 28/28.

[Bob Wessner]

The tire is in good condition

I hope it's not the same tire that was on it in 1982, is it?

[Killer Canary]

Just a thought, but when I first started riding the Canary I found it to be downright sluggish in parking lots, didn't want to go where I pointed it.The problem I found was that the actuation cam on the REAR brake was dry and wouldn't completely disengage the brake when I let off the pedal, causing the bike to steer partially from the rear end.Check it out before dismissing the idea.
It happened to me.

[Bodi]

My experience is that tires and pressure has a huge effect on the steering. Try a bit more front pressure. Worn tires - flat bottomed for example - will give weird turn-in at low speed especially.
Also, many aftermarket shocks were not the correct length, usually too long as they tended to have the 750 length listed for all the fours. Dropping the forks in the triple clamps helps counteract that somewhat.
Even a heavy (ie typical N.A. size) rider can result in the back end running lower than design and affect the steering.

[ditchen]

My experience is that tires and pressure has a huge effect on the steering. Try a bit more front pressure. Worn tires - flat bottomed for example - will give weird turn-in at low speed especially.
Also, many aftermarket shocks were not the correct length, usually too long as they tended to have the 750 length listed for all the fours. Dropping the forks in the triple clamps helps counteract that somewhat.
Even a heavy (ie typical N.A. size) rider can result in the back end running lower than design and affect the steering.

Agreed, I have a new tires, still running 28 lbs of pressure in the front. But it almost feels like a rake issue with the front.Not so much the weight. Once again I have a lot of seat time on sport bikes, dirt bikes, duel-sport bikes. I know they are fling-it machines, but this just feels weird. Then again they are also 20yrs + newer .I was not sure this is the way it is supposed to handle or not. I have not done much tweeking for my liking yet. I really do not think it is a brake issue, for what they are, they appear to be working ok. I am no novice at riding. Just have not been on a vintage machine in 25 yrs or so. Like I mentioned, I am not going to be quick on the draw tweeking it until I get more seat time. It is something that jumped out when I re-visited the riding it again.

BTW this thing is all stock, except the rear lowering blocks and the hog wheel. I am going to put it all back to stock by the time I am done.

[stingray]

Yep! The front and rear rubber appear to be original.  I checked the TP it was 20 p.s.i.  This may be the reason.  I'm going to fill it up to 28 tomorrow and see if it helps.
I don't plan to keep the tires even though tread is good.  The rubber is not cracked, but hard.
I have another question.  It is in regards to throttle cables.  My manual shows me two throttle cables.  There is only one.  The throttle cable housing at the handle bar has a provision for another. There is suppose to be two, correct?   Why two?

[Bob Wessner]

Yep! The front and rear rubber appear to be original.

Treat yourself to a future, don't ride on that tire! If the rear is the same age, change that one too.

[stingray]

Treat yourself to a future, don't ride on that tire! If the rear is the same age, change that one too.

You better believe that b/4 I hit the road, new tread will be mounted!
Thanks for caring about me!

[Bodain]

With my 75 CB550 project. I discovered something very similar.. The steering just was not right.
I pulled the forks to look at the race and bearings. Races looked good. Bearings looked good.
I put it all back together. I had the same problem. Hmmm

I finally solved this by backing off on the triple tree nut that holds it all together. Too tight and it will bind.

[ditchen]

With my 75 CB550 project. I discovered something very similar.. The steering just was not right.
I pulled the forks to look at the race and bearings. Races looked good. Bearings looked good.
I put it all back together. I had the same problem. Hmmm

I finally solved this by backing off on the triple tree nut that holds it all together. Too tight and it will bind.

The triple does make sense. Been sitting for a while, stiff. May feel ok with no load, but under a load may be difference. This winter I am going through it. I am  one of those got it fired, got to ride it kind of guy. 

[oldbiker]

If the tyre pressure was 20 lb/in then that would definitely cause heavy steering. Remember these bikes are heavier relatively than modern bikes. I always prefer my tyre pressures to be 2 lbs up rather than 2 lbs down and my bike handles just fine. I admit though that my bike is a cb400f rather than a cb750.

[Gordon]

Have you set the steering head tightness according to the manual?  With the bike on center stand and the front tire jacked up off the ground, you should be able to tap the wheel in either direction and have it fall the rest of the way to full lock on its own.  Also, the grease inside the bearings may have hardened over the decades.  When I pulled the steering assembly on my 550, I had to scrape all the old grease off with a screwdriver.  The bearings weren't even rolling anymore, they were just sliding along the races.   

[stingray]

I'll check the bearings.  It makes sense that they would be caked up from sitting so long.  Thanks for the suggestion Gordon.

[Uncle Ernie]

Getting in here a little late...
I would highly recommend new tires as the ones you have will feel like riding on ice in turns. It's amazing how fast a bike can slip out from under you even at a very slow speed.
Next, I would recommend tire pressures at 30 to 32 psi in front and 32 to 34 psi in back.  Tire technology is changing, but it's still a good idea to take it easy for the first 50-75 miles so the mold release goop they put on the tires wears away.
Definitely check steering bearings. I'll bet a nickle the grease is shot. Put the bike on the centerstand and have a friend sit on the back of the seat so the front wheel comes up off the ground (or put a sports car jack under the engine if you're the loner type). Grab the forks near the axle and pull/push- there should be no play. Making sure the cables aren't hanging up the forks or wheel, slowly move the wheel back and forth (from side to side). If you feel any kind of "notch" the bearings are probably shot.  There should be a tiny bit of resistance to initial push.  When you sit on the bike, the bars should move easily but should feel like you're pushing through pudding- not TOO loose. When you ride it and feel like the bike is falling into a turn, the bearings are probably too tight (unless you're using sidecar tires  ).

[Bodain]

Easy enough to tell if it's triple tree / bearing related. Get the front wheel off the ground while parked. Move the handle bars left and right.

[cd811]

I don't know for sure but I would guess in 76 they still had ball bearing in the steering. if so throw them far and replace with temken...the difference is like night and day!

[stingray]

Getting in here a little late...
Making sure the cables aren't hanging up the forks or wheel

You know, at times we race to find the answers to our questions only to figure out that there was no problem at all.
Call me a bonehead.
Thanks Uncle Ernie