Topic: CC 45 vs 9mm

[bender01]

Earlier today there was a thread about the new taurus 45 polymer pistol. Where did it go? My friends and i talked about this today at  a cookout. Not just about Taurus, but 45 cal and 9mm. 40 was left out as it seems to be mostly a LEO caliber. We all seem to have come to an agreement that 9mm would be a great choice. For example, an attacker against yourself or others near you  probably would be armed with a 9mm. In that theory the better prepared /educated/ccw permit holder/ regular gun owner could better him/herself with the attackers(dead perpetrators) ammo to prepare for whatever might be next.
 I hope everyone has a nice Memorial Day. I just wish it would stop raining here. 

[Mach-5(50)]

This IS one of those can of worm topics. That being said......There is a lot that goes onto ballistics. From caliber, mass, bullet design, JHP, FMJ.....You have to look at muzzle velocity, impact pressures, penetration etc.
9mm was the compromise my wife and I made. It is readily available, relatively cheap, and provides good stopping power without ripping the gun out of my wife's small hands. I think my next handgun will be a 40 cal. 45 has a lot of mystique, and is often looked upon as a "real man's round". Whether or not it is the best round, is always debatable. For the record, I am not saying it is or isn't.

later,

Ryan

[kslrr]

I believe the 9mm has a higher MV than the .45 ACP, if I remember what my father told me.  Also, a typical 9mm semi-auto pistol gives you more in the clip.  The .45 on the other hand makes a nice big hole.

[fuzzybutt]

9mm has too high a muzzle velocity and penetrating power. the .45acp is a big, heavy, slow moving slug that hits hard and stays inside what, or who you shoot. lots safer than a round going through an intruder then through a wall.

[medic09]

It has been 20 years since I last slept in the field with my rifle cuddled close, my S&W 9mm tucked under my left armpit, and a teammate's ankle crossed over mine to wake me fast if needed.  So, I'm not current - but what I recall is the most important thing about use of firearms is to be well-trained, well-drilled, to be able to hit your target quickly, accurately, and preferably two or three times (snipers excepted).  I carried a 9mm as my backup, and primary when home, because I FELT like I had better control with it.  I have small hands, I'm not especially strong, and the 9mm just felt better to me.  If I carried a bigger caliber and was less proficient with it, it wouldn't make any sense.  If I got another pistol today, my first choice might again be a good 9mm.  I liked that S&W.

All things equal, more bang for the buck is probably good; but all things are never equal.

[fuzzybutt]

It has been 20 years since I last slept in the field with my rifle cuddled close, my S&W 9mm tucked under my left armpit, and a teammate's ankle crossed over mine to wake me fast if needed.  So, I'm not current - but what I recall is the most important thing about use of firearms is to be well-trained, well-drilled, to be able to hit your target quickly, accurately, and preferably two or three times (snipers excepted).  I carried a 9mm as my backup, and primary when home, because I FELT like I had better control with it.  I have small hands, I'm not especially strong, and the 9mm just felt better to me.  If I carried a bigger caliber and was less proficient with it, it wouldn't make any sense.  If I got another pistol today, my first choice might again be a good 9mm.  I liked that S&W.

All things equal, more bang for the buck is probably good; but all things are never equal.

+1     i am a big, strong guy and have big hands. i can hit what i aim at no matter what i'm shooting. about the only hndgun that i didnt shoot well was a S+W .500 mag i was going to use as a hog hunting gun.

[Inigo Montoya]

If I had the choice between a 9mm and a 45, it would be 45 every time. The 9 just does not seem to have the stopping power of the 45. It might sound dumb but I would love to see a 357 semi-auto. These seem to be a revolver only round, kinda like the 44 or 454.

[medic09]

If I had the choice between a 9mm and a 45, it would be 45 every time. The 9 just does not seem to have the stopping power of the 45. It might sound dumb but I would love to see a 357 semi-auto. These seem to be a revolver only round, kinda like the 44 or 454.

If you hit your target well, almost any round will do.  Certainly anything above .32, depending on what it has to penetrate.  Back in the same days that I carried a 9mm, Israeli airline security crews carried .22.  You have to train, drill, and aim to kill.

My 9mm was loaded with alternating rounds: copper jacket, hollow point, copper jacket, hollow point...  That was popular in our circles at the time.

[Mach-5(50)]

If I had the choice between a 9mm and a 45, it would be 45 every time. The 9 just does not seem to have the stopping power of the 45. It might sound dumb but I would love to see a 357 semi-auto. These seem to be a revolver only round, kinda like the 44 or 454.

.357 sig - like a 9mm round in a 40 s&w case, necked down of course. super high velocity from what I remember...too high.
fairly expensive too.

[fuzzybutt]

theres always a desert eagle .357 magnum. high price tag to go along with it too.

[AngryGreek]

I'd think if you are in a situation where 9mm isn't going to stop your attacker, you should probably rethink some of your life choices.  Like why you are trying to kill a grizzly bear with a CC gun.

It's like the mag-capacity argument.  If you need all <insert high-cap mag amount here> rounds, you should probably be rethinking the decisions that led you to what is apparently a shootout with a small army.

Besides, 9mm is cheaper

[bender01]

Yeah its a tough call. So ive got both. The small 9 is easier to conceal than my 1911 and doesnt snag on clothing.Has anyone had a comfortable subcompact iwb holster thats reasonably priced and discreet? I thought about the 357sig just to be different but decided that it was too much an oddbal cartridge.If money grew on trees Id have two of eveything. One to shoot and one too keep NIB for collecting purposes.

[fuzzybutt]

i use a blackhawk suede inside the pants clip on holster. but my pt145 is nice and short with a 3.25" barrel. it does however, hold 10 in the magazine and 1 more in the chamber. no external hammer either.

[Inigo Montoya]

I'd think if you are in a situation where 9mm isn't going to stop your attacker, you should probably rethink some of your life choices.  Like why you are trying to kill a grizzly bear with a CC gun.

It's like the mag-capacity argument.  If you need all <insert high-cap mag amount here> rounds, you should probably be rethinking the decisions that led you to what is apparently a shootout with a small army.

Have you ever seen a person cracked out on meth or pcp? When you do, hope you have that high caliber.

As for muzzle velocity, it does not play that big a roll, really it doesn't. If you have high mv, then you compensate with a different style of round. for example, hunting varmint takes a high mv but that would go through and do nothing so it is coupled with a frag tip to counter the penetration. Yes I know a varm is not a person but the same idea applies.
If you use a high mv round, then you use a bullet that expands faster to provide more stop and less penetration. Opposite is true with a low mv round, use a harder bullet with less expansion and you get more penetration.
The joys of loading your own rounds are apparent.

As for cost, when defending your family, cost is not an issue.

I still would not do a 9mm. I have talked to too many service men that traded the gun in for a 45. Sorry but 90% of people are not trained to do a kill with a 22 round in the heat of a firefight. The vast majority that are, well it is their job to be that good.

[medic09]

90% of people are not trained to do a kill with a 22 round in the heat of a firefight. The vast majority that are, well it is their job to be that good.

That could be an argument against larger guns.  Untrained, undrilled shooter with a gun they can't control equals wild shooting, with innocents being hit instead.  Works both ways, really.

I don't think guns belong in the hands of people who don't train and then drill regularly.

[kghost]

Kghost's gunfight rules.

1.) it has to go bang every time....The most awesome gun in the world is useless if an angel pisses in your flintlock. Guns that don't work are known as "Clubs".

2.) It has to hit where its aimed...and you have to be able to hit where your aiming.

3.) Hit them with the biggest heaviest bullets going as fast as possible.

I thought the .22 comment was interesting as I've said for years in various discussions...short of someone seriously motivated or hopped up on PCP or the like....most folks once you shoot them...don't wanna play anymore.

[TwoTired]

While I like, and have, both calibers, for my situation I find 45 cal to be better suited.
I am also a good shot when calm and focused.  Shot placement is not a problem for me when conditions are good.

I haven't had much practice or repetitive drills with my adrenalin pumped and my heart racing.  By all accounts, these factors make pinpoint aim problematic.
 You are still responsible for rounds that don't go where you intend them to go.  I live in a residential area, and high velocity small caliber rounds that miss the target will go through several walls and still have enough energy to severely injure people.  This is what 9mm will do easily.
Ball ammunition is a military projectile made for maximum penetration in whatever it hits.  I don't want these in adjacent rooms of my house and certainly not my neighbors, whether it passes through the intended perpetrator, or not.

Therefore, I chose a large caliber frangible rounds as the first ones to come out the spout; Like the Glaser Safety slugs in .45 caliber.  These are a fairly light rounds, Basically a copper cup filled with steel shot and a plastic nose that spreads the cup and the shot right after initial entry.   Penetration of a typical interior wall leaves fragments with little velocity and not enough energy to incur lethality.  The wall is screwed up, of course.  And, rounds that do hit the target don't exit.  So, injuring someone behind the target is very unlikely.

Yes, 9mm is cheaper than 45 Glasers.  But, 45 Glasers are still cheaper than a funeral...  or lawyer fees for wrongful injury suits.

If you think you are a good shot, run in place for three minutes and then check your shot placement/groups within 15 seconds.  Try it.  Have someone else time the run and see how many rounds hit your target in 15 seconds.  If someone is advancing on you from seven yards out.  You have less than 15 seconds to stop them.

The .357 round was developed in 1934 so police so they could shoot through gangster car doors.  These penetrate like .38 Super and both have better penetration than 9mm.
If you must have a 357 auto-loader, find a Coonan, or a Desert eagle that chambers that caliber.

There are frangible rounds available for the 9mm, too.  Extreme shock and Sinter fire come to mind.  You tube has several demonstration videos of these.  I haven't fire them, though.

After I use up the Glasers in a fight, the plan continues with Golden Saber and Black Talon, then Federal Hydra shock, and 185 Gr hollow points.  These have all been tested to fire reliably in by defense guns.

In summary, the wider the swath the projectile makes, the more energy will be expended in the initial target, minimizing risks to non-combatants.

Of course, I'm assuming I won't have to defeat personnel wearing vests or armor.  If I'm expecting these, there is always the .50 AE or .454.  They'll need 3/8 to 1/2 steel plate to stop these   But, these really aren't routine carry or quick to action guns.

Cheers,

[Inigo Montoya]

Medic, I certainly agree about training but most people have to work and take care of their family and so constant drilling is not really feasible. Besides, drilling does not mean a thing. Read police reports where they fire a butt load of rounds and hit with maybe 2 or 3 and they are trained quite a bit. I think is most cases a person just has to hope for the best. Sure is not ideal but most only have nerves of steel until they really need them.

[myhondas]

As we used to say......Know why you can get 11-15 rds of 9mm into the mags? Cause you are going to need all of them to get the job done. My favorite is the 45 with the 357 a close second and a 40cal my third choice. Stop power can't be overemphizied. When you pump your mag and they don't go down you'll know you picked the wrong one.

[fuzzybutt]

funny, the joykiller that wanted me to remove my gun thread hasnt chimed in yet.

[tramp]

we all know the 45 packs more wallop
the 9mm has more controll for people who don't like the kick
the number of rounds is relative because most gun fights are over in 5 or less rounds
the 45acp was designed to kill people
the logical choice is the 45
learn to shoot it

[mark]

...
The joys of loading your own rounds are apparent. .....

finding a civil lawyer willing to defend your homemade man-killer ammo may prove a challenge.

I'd stick to factory stuff for defense use.

[Inigo Montoya]

Why? You are using publicly available ammo. I am not talking about casting your own bullets or using sabot rounds or anything like that. As such, I doubt there would be anything that could be used.
I still woudl say to load your own rounds. another benefit would be packing less powder to reduce penetration.
I used to deer hunt using 30-06 rounds with something like 80-90 grains of powder. Over penetration was rarely an issue and the knock down was excellent.

[TwoTired]

...
The joys of loading your own rounds are apparent. .....

finding a civil lawyer willing to defend your homemade man-killer ammo may prove a challenge.

I'd stick to factory stuff for defense use.

+1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1 

"Tell me Mr. Defendant, why did you find it necessary to make extra-maiming ammunition in an effort to injure as cheaply as possible?  The Prosecuting party might not have sustained such debilitating injuries if you had used standard ammunition.  Why shouldn't you be financially liable for my clients future lost wages?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was not satisfied with simply protecting his family.  He had forethought and malice to make sure anyone he goes after would pay for the incident for the rest of their life."

I do reloading, too.  But, it doesn't go in my defense guns (except for target practice day), just because of the court system and the jury selection process.

[Inigo Montoya]

" I made special ammo to prevent it from penetrating walls to reduce the change of injury to innocents."  How was that? It works both ways. Plus, unless you make only 1 round, police can check it out and that could work in your favor.
But what you point out does show that courts are more interested in protecting criminals than victims.

Sorry but I fail to see how taking a round normally high mv and lowering its mv to reduce penetration as well as a softer bullet to further reduce penetration but adding stopping power at short ranges, will seriously hurt someone in court. But hey, if a person can spill coffee on themselves because of their own bumbling and then sue place, anything is possible.