Topic: CC 45 vs 9mm

[Frankencake]

I'm sorry but it doesn't really matter what you shoot someone with.  The chances of anyone actually getting in to a row with your gun are slim.  The chances the shot person gets up and wants another are even slimmer.  Methamphetamine, indeed, but you really have to think about the odds.  I'd rather carry a .22 and make a lot of little holes.  They hurt and they can be debilitating.  Go get a block of clay and shoot it once with a .22hp   Take a piece of wire and cut it in half along the bullet trajectory.  The shock wave in the clay makes a cavity about the size of a fist or bigger.  Now tell me that when that happens inside some ones belly or chest or knee or whatever, that it won't cause a brief pause to rethink what they are doing.  If they continue, they will receive more negative reinforcement.  .45 and 9mm are, of course, way bigger and they will do a better job of making a hole, but any well placed round of any caliber will accomplish what you are attempting.  The element of surprise makes for an even bigger advantage since you are CC.  If all of a sudden the perp has a hole in him he'll stop.  If not, there are 7 more holes coming.
Now if I was going to combat, that is a totally different story.  .45 all the way. 
Have you checked out the Springfield XD's and XDM's?  Pretty sweet partners if you ask me.

[TwoTired]

Any of you planning on using a gun to defend yourselves, should make "In the Gravest Extreme" my Massad Ayoob an absolute must read.

If you are going to make your own ammunition for self defense, then you had better be able to present credentials showing you to be an expert in the field, because the opposition lawyer will produce a credentialed expert showing the ammunition companies' research on making the best defense product for the market.  None of the jury will be able to assess your competence at ammo manufacture, IF you even take the chance to testify (and be cross examined). I can assure you that a superior attitude alone will NOT win over any jury.

If you produce your own "expert" make sure you find one that is willing to put his reputation on the line for you, and be able to respond with why he doesn't use your ammunition for his own defense guns.

I predict you will spend far more money defending your "Superior" homemade defense ammo in court, than you ever saved by not using commercially available type.  And still, your liability/culpability for the event will remain in question.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is so conscientious that he insisted on using Glaser SAFETY ammunition."  (Alternately, use ammunition approved by police departments, as this removes ammo selection from the minds of the jurors as a factor of "intent to be injurious".)

The idea is to stack the after action court odds in your favor.  Making your own ammo in a defense shooting simply does not do that.  It adds another contentious factor into the equation where the only possible benefit will be to who you shot.  The best you can hope is for it to be a non-factor distraction toward a favorable outcome.

I don't like it.  But, that's the way it is.  Don't give lawyers any "ammunition" they can exploit with uneducated and gullible jury members.  Chances are, they've seen Hollywood presentations of blood thirsty criminals making their own extra devastating ammunition for nefarious purposes.  That is the mindset the lawyer will certainly try to associate you into.

[AngryGreek]

...
The joys of loading your own rounds are apparent. .....

finding a civil lawyer willing to defend your homemade man-killer ammo may prove a challenge.

I'd stick to factory stuff for defense use.

+1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1  +1 

"Tell me Mr. Defendant, why did you find it necessary to make extra-maiming ammunition in an effort to injure as cheaply as possible?  The Prosecuting party might not have sustained such debilitating injuries if you had used standard ammunition.  Why shouldn't you be financially liable for my clients future lost wages?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was not satisfied with simply protecting his family.  He had forethought and malice to make sure anyone he goes after would pay for the incident for the rest of their life."

I do reloading, too.  But, it doesn't go in my defense guns (except for target practice day), just because of the court system and the jury selection process.

I think I read an article where even a justified self-defense shooting in which you are found innocent still costs upwards of $50k.

I think they saying is "Every round fired in self defense has a little lawyer flying behind it" or something to that effect.

[billybobobrain]

My problem with small caliber pistols is: ma ny O retards get themselves shot 15 times with a 9mm and still live. If I shoot someone, it better be once, and it better work

[fuzzybutt]

in states with "castle doctrine" laws you arent liabile for ANY legal or civil penalties as long as you can show you thought you were in danger. that means that the mutts family cant sure you for killing their loved one that was breaking into your house or carjacking you.

[sparty]

My thoughts: I shoot IDPA matches and have trained to the expert level in handgun self-defense with some of the best in the business over the past 10 years.  My CC is a Glock 32 (.357 Sig), it was a personal choice based on the ballistic testing.  I also have a Glock 23 (.40 S&W), great caliber all around.  My Springfield XD (.45 ACP) is a bull and will stop one also.  My Kimber 1911 is my match gun.

At my club we have many LEOs.  They all carry something for CC other than a 9mm.  .40 cal being the most popular.  If you are good with a 9mm then CC it IMO.  We always train for a double tap anyway.  So two shots with a 9mm to the COM (center of mass) will do a fair job.   A .40 cal even better.  A .45 say bye bye bad guy.  Even a .32 cal in the hands of a good shot will be effective.  Training is the key.  Remember it is the Indian not the arrow.

Sparty

[Inigo Montoya]

Well tt, laws are different in different states. You live in california. About the only thing you have there we do not have here is lane splitting. I live in a town of about 400 people, you probably have 400 people on your street. In predominantly rural areas, guns are much more accepted and defended. Ways of life are just different in some areas. Besides, what if the round you hand loaded WAS available commercially? In most cases you can handload cheaper than buying it. not only that but handloading usually grants a higher quality shot if a person knows what they are doing.
Besides that, with the array of different rounds available, there is a good chance that any combo you make is available, at least in my area it is.

My point is that you do not just go and throw together some goofy round but actually test it. Heck, you can probably even take it into a police station and have them look at it first before you use it. If you can get a police document on it, then your butt is pretty well covered. I can see how in CA that this might not be a possibility, I doubt you would get much assistance in NYC either. Yet in the midwest and southern states, it is different. Different areas, different laws

[mark]

Concealed carry 45 vs 9mm ....

if one is large enough(or has other means) to conceal a 45 then do it. 9mm is kind of a sketchy defense round anyway. why else would the gun need to hold 15 ?


and since the theme is concealed carry I would not carry handloads period.



if the subject were home defense I would recommend 12ga. trap loads.  1-1/8oz. of lead at 1400fps will make a mess out of the first thing it hits.  and then those little #8 pellets don't tend to penetrate a whole lot farther.

and those would come out of a factory box too.



not that I have anything against handloading.

the neighbor's place is crawling with rockchucks and he says come on over and pop some.

I asked about range and he says 50-150yds but mostly 75-100 .

I'm thinking a 90 grain hollow point and 10-12 maybe 15 grains Unique in the .30-'06 should work just fine.

heckuva lot quieter than that .22-250 I keep hearing over yonder.

[Inigo Montoya]

22-250 now THAT is muzzle velocity! Over 4000fps actually. I think the only bullet faster is the 220 swift and it is just a couple hundred fps or so! Lousy deer rifle but awesome varmint gun with frag rounds!

[Duke McDukiedook]

Go with something like the Kimber match 3" .45. That is one sweet shooter.
I would have to go with my Ruger .357 mag revolver if I decided to C&C, something I already purchased. Didn't know I bought an expert round when I got it. Now I know what they mean when they say "expert round".

[bender01]

Id like to see you explain whats in your shorts with that contender! Those are cool. I know someone with the 410/45 long colt barrel. Just pull the choke and voila pistol. I thought they were somewhat sketchy for awhile as the atf didnt like short shotgun barrels. Now Taurus has the judge so I guess some laws were fixed! I like the idea of Thompsons encore system too. One frame and calibers galore.

[fishhead]

I like the Contender because of the adaptability of it. Heck, I could get a stock, forearm and longer barrells and change it into a rifle.
 I think the Contender chambered in rifle calibers are more aimed at the reloader. The .223 and 45/70 with store bought ammo put out a flame about 3 ft wide and 6 ft long out the end of the barrell.  From what I gather, it is even more accurate with custom reloads.
  I've had a few other barrels for the pistol. One "weird" cartridge that I was really impressed with for it is the .30 Carbine. Off a bench at 100 yards, 1.5-2 inch 3 shot groups are the norm and the .223's are even tighter.
 In all honesty, my Savage .22 semi-auto rifle would be a better home protection gun than my single shot pistol as the 45/70 would probably not do much damage on its way through an intruder, other than punching a neat hole through them.
 

[Frankencake]

I like the Contender because of the adaptability of it. Heck, I could get a stock, forearm and longer barrells and change it into a rifle.
 I think the Contender chambered in rifle calibers are more aimed at the reloader. The .223 and 45/70 with store bought ammo put out a flame about 3 ft wide and 6 ft long out the end of the barrell.  From what I gather, it is even more accurate with custom reloads.
  I've had a few other barrels for the pistol. One "weird" cartridge that I was really impressed with for it is the .30 Carbine. Off a bench at 100 yards, 1.5-2 inch 3 shot groups are the norm and the .223's are even tighter.
 In all honesty, my Savage .22 semi-auto rifle would be a better home protection gun than my single shot pistol as the 45/70 would probably not do much damage on its way through an intruder, other than punching a neat hole through them.
 

Now if you were to SLOW that 45/70 down a bit, you could knock your intruder through the wall.

[fuzzybutt]

http://www.sled.sc.gov/ProtectionOfPeople.aspx?MenuID=CWP



PROTECTION OF PERSONS AND PROPERTY ACT

The stated intent of the legislation is to codify the common law castle doctrine, which recognizes that a person’s home is his castle, and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the person’s place of business. This bill authorizes the lawful use of deadly force under certain circumstances against an intruder or attacker in a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle. The bill provides that there is no duty to retreat if (1) the person is in a place where he has a right to be, including the person’s place of business, (2) the person is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and (3) the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily injury, or the commission of a violent crime. A person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known the person is a law enforcement officer.

H.4301 (R412) was signed by the Governor on June 9, 2006.

[TwoTired]

Not all states have that castle doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

[burmashave]

I have neither; however, I have spent limited time at the range with a Colt model 1911 among other handguns. I'm sentimental; however, I would choose the .45. It stops people. Browning designed the 1911 in part because of the US Army experience with the Philipine tribe of the Moros who would attack suicidally after getting hopped up on drugs. Many found the US Army .38 inadequate to stop these attackers. (See The Sight: M1911A1.) This situation replayed in the Mid East where some service people have traded in their Barettas for M1911's. There is even a charity that collects funds to provide ground pounders with .45's.

From what I read, it's stopping power that matters, which is why I guess that double-tapping is important when using a 9MM. I also think that the 9MM is the one of the reasons why so many gangbangers survive multiple shootings. From the perspective of a defender, I don't think that surviving a shooting is a bad thing for the attacker unless the attacker is still able to return fire (is not stopped); When many attackers do survive multiple shootings, I wonder how many of these shot attackers were able to fire back. On another note, I wonder again if the small round is the reason why so many children get killed. Adults are much better able to withstand the round.

Browning was beyond genius. We're debating using his weapon almost 100 years after it was introduced. On the other hand, I've believed that the 9MM was a marketing deal. I don't think folks would have gotten excited about an automatic that fires a .35 caliber round. A 10MM, at .39 caliber, seems a bit more reasonable; however, this is very close to the .38 round that many police forces and military organizations had previously found inadequate.

By the way, for you M1911 adherents, the above site has an interesting page of Myths and Legends of the M1911A1. My favorite is the pilot who used his M1911A to shoot down a strafing Japanese zeke while he was floating down in a parachute. So if your home defense may require shooting down airplanes, choose the M1911.

[jaknight]

SNIP Browning was beyond genius. We're debating using his weapon almost 100 years after it was introduced.

Somewhat off topic, but Browning seemed to adhere to the standards that were later adopted by the Dunhill tobacco pipe company, whom I believe make the best commercial pipes in the world:

1. It must be useful.
2. It must work dependably.
3. It must be beautiful.
4. It must last.
5. It must be the best of its kind.

Off topic has ended.

~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~