Author Topic: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?  (Read 7849 times)

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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This is a continuation of the troubleshooting of my Honda CB750 K (1976) which has the dreaded air pods which i recently replaced with brand new EMGO paper filters just to know what i'm working with as opposed to what I inherited.

So, I've moved the needles in the slide down to the bottom position (so up and out of the way as much as they can be); re-timed (static); re-sync'd carbs; and fastidiously reset the float valve height and my main jets are now 125's and my pilot air screws are set to 1/2 turn.

She is runs better than ever and was going to put on the 130's I have on my shelf but checked the plugs after a test run and they have the fluffy carbon residue on all four.  After running awhile she stutters on acceleration so it seems like continuation of the problems I was having prior to re-jetting (albeit less severe by far)...but the carbon fouling confuses me unless...because I have the mixture so rich to compensate for a still too small main jet (which is true...half a turn rather then the standard 1+) which cause carbon fouling eventhough she still need gas...does this make sense?...help if you can...thanks ron.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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...one more thing...she seems to run better when I turn the air pilots screw all the way in then back out at the current time...thanks.

..and I have cleaned the plugs after checking them all.
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ev0lution7

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when a motor stubles and then burbles in the exhuast... its RICH
when a motor stubles and then pops in the carb... ITS LEAN
on decell... if it pops in the pipes its semi RICH..

that the general rule.....

my 77 750k that has a KerKer 4-1 OPEN exhaust still uses STOCK jetting and it's still too rich!

so stock jetting is pig rich at higher elevation and still rich at sea level!

Offline Otto

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I just went thru some very similar issues. I hate to say it but, pull the carbs and make sure the needles are OEM. They have part numbers on them. If they are not, it may be your problem. If they ARE Keyster carb part numbers, I'd get the OEM needles and start there...

See this thread for more info..

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=51044.0

Hope that helps!

bc
Otto

1971 HONDA CB750K1- Valley Green Metallic

2007 Triumph Bonneville - Silver/Black Carburetted

Offline mlinder

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You put emgo paper filters where, in the stock airbox?
If you are running stock airbox, and close to stock exhaust, you shouldn't be running any bigger than maybe 115's, probably 110's, possibly 105's, depending on your altitude.
If not in stock airbox, then what ar eyou running the paper filters in?
Your air screws should be between 1 and 1.5 turns out if running the stock airbox with some kind of filter.

When you say it "runs better", what do you mean? Do you mean you can whack open the throttle better? Or what? We need more specifics. Yeah, running that rich will give better ability to whack open these old slide-piston carbs, but will cause problems under any other circumstance.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Omg Otto...i really don't want to tear them apart again but will check if the 130's dont work...I think this would number 3 needle tear down.

Per Ev7...I think she is still lean then because the stumbling/burbling and then a pop once in awhile was coming from the carb/motor area not the exhaust...cool info.

ml...no stock box which is the source of these troubles I would venture to say...I'm using new paper EMGO pods which replace the K&N pods which i inherited with the bike...I cleaned and oiled them but not sure what shape they were in to begin with....bike hadn't run in seven years.  sorry bout the lack of info...I've been rejetting my bike once i realized that this was the source of my bikes stalling and sputtering through some of the folks...so its running way better compared to when i had 105 main jets..

...one question though Ev7 (or anybody)...so i can be running lean and still have carbon fouled plugs?...answer seems to be "yes."...thanks all.


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Offline mlinder

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You could be running lean under a certain ciruit, while rich in the other.

Put your needles back to center position. Turn you air screws out to 3/4 to 1 turn out.
Then do your plug chops.

WOT first,
Then half throttle
then idle.

We need to know those to tell you where and when you are running rich or lean.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Hi ml...i only did one other plug chop prior to changing jets, needle position and pilot screw position (stand 1 3/4) and there was no carbon fouling....just tanish, grayish residue on the tips...she was prone to stalling after 6-8 miles, and stutter at low throttle.

...me thinks I'm going to try the 130's?  I know this may be a bit of a shortcut but it continues what has been positive progress and from your info, my guess is she's running rich on the low rpm's (which pilot air impacts) and lean otherwise?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 12:17:10 PM by ron.cieri.313 »
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Offline mlinder

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You can't guess.

Leave the 125's in. Do a plug chop at WOT. Do it with new plugs. This wil lhelp you decide whether you need larger mains... which I am in serious doubt of.

Also, please move the needles back to the middle position before you do this, ok? I't helps give us a better baseline. After you do the WOT plugchop, do the 1/4 to 3/4 throttle plugchop.
Once we have thos esorted, dialing in the air screws should be easy.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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I guess this is why you are the master and I am the grasshopper!

How do I do a plug chop only at WOT...take her for a run which is very fast after the new plugs are installed?
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2009, 01:16:48 PM »
Find a nice, long, barely used road. WOT in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, kill it, take a look at plugs. Do it a few times if you aren't getting enough deposits right away for a good read. You could WOT it in 5th for a while without reaching redline, but you'll likely be 100mph+ for that time. Best way to get a reading, but not exactly safe or legal.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2009, 01:19:32 PM »
sounds like fun :D
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 01:28:31 PM »
Seriously, if you have a long stretch of unused road thats fairly straight, and you are comfortable with 100mph+ speeds, WOT in 5th for a few miles is the best way to do this. Again, I'm not condoning breaking traffic laws. I'm just saying.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 08:52:26 AM »
Probably not comfortable with that at least until I replace this old rear tire (front is new).

There is freeway not to far from my house, possibly use that at night sometime?...Michigan speed limit is 70ish.

I should be able to tear apart this weekend...the needle position when I inherited the beast was in the second from the bottom position...but I should put it in the middle/third position?...remember, I got those blasted pod air filters.

Will then put in new plugs and try to to do a WOT plug chop as best as my reason will allow, and then send back news and seek mo guidance...thanks!...ron
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 08:55:23 AM by ron.cieri.313 »
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 09:20:38 AM »
I do believe stock position is middle clip.
The larger jet allows more fuel at everything above 1/4 throttle. You need a good middle starting point to do this correctly.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 10:58:59 AM »
will do then and let you know how it goes...thx...ron.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 12:02:36 PM »
Maybe some basics will help.

The carbs react to the piston going down on the intake stroke, which draws a vacuum in the intake runner all the way from the cylinder valve to the point at which air is drawn from the atmosphere.  (Since you have pods, that would be the filter's outside face.  (If you had an air box, it would be the air box inlet opening.)

The depth of the vacuum created in that intake runner is effected by the resistance to air flow between those two points.  If you block the inlet in some way, the depth of vacuum increases along the entire runner length.  Similarly, just changing any restrictive element along the path also changes the specific vacuum pressure presented to the runner walls along its length.

The vacuum pressure is important because lower pressure in the carb throat is what draws fuel out of the carb bowl through the fuel metering jets.  (For casual readers, yes there is the venturi effect too, but this hasn't changed on the subject of this thread.)
Anyway of you change the inlet restriction characteristics, this in turn effects the volume of fuel that will pass through a given size metering jet orifice.  Honda engineers selected the fuel metering orifice size for the vacuum that occurs with the stock air box, filter, engine breathing characteristics, and the exhaust back pressure.  Popular folk lore has it that the air box and filter were a huge mistake for various reasons other the engineering principles, so this device is often discarded, and cheap pod filters are installed in its place.

Pod filters reduce the inlet restriction, leading to reduced carb throat vacuum, leading to less fuel being drawn through the metering jets.  Since the engine mechanicals have not been changed as well, the air being drawn through the inlet has NOT changed in volume and if you deliver less fuel for the same volume of air to the cylinder, the engine runs lean.  Standard carburettors do not have any means to self adjust their air fuel ratios with changes to stock air box, filter, engine breathing characteristics, or the exhaust back pressure.  So, the carbs must be retuned for these changes.  If the vacuum pressure depth has lessened, then the fuel metering orifices must be increased in size to restore the proper air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber.  The common folk lore that larger jet sizes means you a making more power, is simply false, btw.

Your mechanical slide carbs have three prominent and adjustable fuel metering devices that must be addressed when changing the stock air box, filter, engine breathing characteristics, or the exhaust back pressure.  These are the Slow/Idle/Pilot circuit which dominates at throttle positions from idle setting to about 1/4 throttle, the Throttle valve (slide and slide needle), which dominates the fuel mixture between 1/4 and 3/4 throttle, and the main jet which dominates between 3/4 and Wide Open Throttle (WOT). 

It is possible to overcompensate any or all of these carb settings/adjustments.  The result is that fuel hydrocarbons that can't find oxygen molecules to pair with, get deposited on the combustion chamber walls in which the spark plug tips protrude.  This looks like soot, is electrically conductive and when it coats the sparks plug's center electrode insulator, it shunts the spark energy away from making an arc across the electrodes.

How to correctly retune...
The goal is to supply the proper ratio of fuel to air at any throttle setting.  When this occurs, best power is available from the engine, and there are little or no deposits left on the spark plug bits that are in the combustion chamber.  The heat from correct ratio burning self cleans the spark plugs.

Modern techniques employ a dynomometer, which allows the engine to produce its maximum power at any throttle setting, along with instrumentation to "sniff" the exhaust so that the air fuel ratio can be mapped over the entire throttle setting range.  This technique replaces some tuning skill with science, and is probably the fastest way to readjust after changes to the stock configured machine.

The "home brew way" is to find a test track, and force the engine to make maximum power, and then look at tel-tale signs of combustion remnants deposited on the spark plugs.  This is affectionately termed the "Plug chop" method.    To freeze the moment of chamber conditions, the engine is run under load for a sufficient period of time to produce plug deposits, then the engine is stopped as quickly as possible, the spark plugs are pulled, and the deposits "read" for combustion conditions.
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

Since the main jet has the largest orifice and also feeds the throttle valve, this jet is usually selected first in order to produce clean spark plug deposits, and best distance/time numbers on the test track.

Then the throttle valve (slide needles) are set using midrange throttle settings on the test track, so that the spark plugs don't build up excessive deposits, brown to tan is good, as it should be slightly rich for acceptable throttle response in this range. (assuming your don't have an accelerator pump).
(Be aware that the needle taper profile also sets 1/3 and 2/3 throttle settings, if the taper is wrong, 1/2 throttle can be correct, but the 1/3 or 2/3 throttle settings can be either rich or lean)

Finally, the idle air bleed is adjusted for as lean a setting possible, yet still allow the engine to respond for brisk power when given up to one half total throttle travel on an instant twist.

All this tuning will be a total waste of time unless all the carb internal parts are clean and undamaged.

When this is all accomplished, you have successfully adapted pod filters to your bike.  And, future owners of the machine will thank you instead of curse you.

Is this of any help?


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 12:47:16 PM »
ah, yes, much help, thanks!

...I now see the method to the madness...so I'm going to chop as ml instructed to set the main jet first and then work to needle setting and then pilot screw.

Should I just replace the needles so i'm sure I'm dealing with the correct needle profile...they looked fine and I polished them with scotchbrite...I did not check the stamped part numbers but will when I reset position.

This has been a bigger challenge to me than my CB450 K6 was...thanks all, will let u know how it goes.



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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 12:49:37 PM »
If they are the stock needles, keep em. The aftermarket ones are usually the wrong taper.
Don't use too abrasive of a material on them. You don't want to tak eoff any metal on em.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2009, 07:29:16 AM »
Okay, I pulled the carbs and checked the needles...seem to be stock as all are stamped with the same part number (25702...going on memory as they are at home and I'm at work).

Moved the needle clip position to middle (third from both the top and bottom)...main jets are 125's.

Need to put carbs back on the bike and then change plugs and then ready for WOT test.

I can't seem to find any abandoned roads as I live in an urban/suburban area...so I thinking about keeping the old plugs in till I get on the free way (not during rush hours)...go to a rest stop, pull the plugs, ride a few miles at wot and then next exit get off and pull plugs...does that sound like a decent idea.

Hope to do this week...will let you know how it goes...thx.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2009, 07:36:15 AM »
Sounds good, man. Remember to synch them after putting them back on, if you can.
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2009, 08:19:16 AM »
Will do...I have a morgan tool which makes sync'ing quite manageable...my biggest trouble was finding a place or something to hold the gast tank next to bike...I finally used my kid's old red wagon...problem solved.

Does the freeway wot test sound plausible to you?...I have to scout out a suitable stretch but shouldn't be that hard to find where i live...we have lots a freeways.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2009, 08:55:42 AM »
It does. Be safe!
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Offline ron.cieri.313

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 10:34:51 AM »
Mark...one more question...do you have a recommendation on pilot screw settings when sync'ing in prep for the wot plug chop?...thanks!
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Does Carbon Fouled Plugs Eliminate rejetting as a possible solution?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 11:02:31 AM »
I had my airscrews out about 7/8ths of a turn with pods on my 750. I also live at about sea level.
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