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Offline MCRider

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Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« on: May 28, 2009, 09:37:43 AM »
At the suggestion of Ecosse, I sent 3 CB750 kickstart shafts to www.Cryogenicsofindiana.com for treatment. I had them shotpeened already at Metal Improvement Company. http://www.metalimprovement.com/index.php?gclid=CMKm7Y2435oCFQgNDQod7DMU0g  The goal is an unbreakable shaft. Current project Phaedrus II wil retain the electric starter, but I know from experience sometimes the battery is low and a partial kick assist or full kick is needed to get her started. It'll be an 888cc with 10.5:1 CR.

Next project is a true 750cc with 12:1 CR, kick only. (2 ring Yosh slipper pistons) It probably doesn't really need the beefier shaft, but being kick only it'll reduce the anxiety.

So that leaves one for sale.

Talked to Jeff at Cryo and the shafts are done, less than a week. Picked up and delivered to a shop close to me. He said that once he got a look at them he thinks the cryo treatment would've been all that was necessary. They are perfect candidates for the treatment. So I've got belt and suspenders.

Talked to him about the rocker stands, cams, rocker arms. He said all were good candidates, but he would reserve judgement on the stands till he saw them.  I have buku rocker arms but they all have some wear. Still cryo is OK for worn items, I'm told, as long as they are not trash. And will generally double the service life new or used, of bearing/wear surfaces.

Open for comments.



« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 09:39:20 AM by MCRider »
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline cb750fbomb

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 11:00:08 AM »
Sounds neat, but I bet that is some $$$$
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Offline cafe2be

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 11:05:19 AM »
I had a set of gears cryo'd and shot peened for my 1991 VW jetta with a 1998 vr6 turbo motor (480 whp). Gears last 2x longer. Tore the teeth off my first set of cryo'd gears 2 weeks after getting them back.  ::)

I like the idea of cryo'ing parts.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 11:06:16 AM »
Quote from: cb750fbomb on May 28, 2009, 11:00:08 AM
Sounds neat, but I bet that is some $$$$
Its embarrasingly cheap. Shot peening was their minimum job order ticket of $125. I could've had several more parts on the same ticket probably.

Cryo is $25 per 10lbs!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 11:07:19 AM »
Quote from: cafe2be on May 28, 2009, 11:05:19 AM
I had a set of gears cryo'd and shot peened for my 1991 VW jetta with a 1998 vr6 turbo motor (480 whp). Gears last 2x longer. Tore the teeth off my first set of cryo'd gears 2 weeks after getting them back.  ::)

I like the idea of cryo'ing parts.

I'm not quite following, are you being sarcastic? Two weeks was acceptable, or you just have that much HP?
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline nokrome

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 12:44:35 PM »
if you still have one for sale pm me with a price
   thanks
        phil
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 02:23:45 PM »
Quote from: nokrome on May 28, 2009, 12:44:35 PM
if you still have one for sale pm me with a price
   thanks
        phil
Check your PM
Ron
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline cafe2be

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 06:23:32 PM »
no no mc, not being sarcastic. It was way too much hp for stock gears. I was impressed with the fact that it seemed to have made it 2x as strong. Will probably cyro as much as possible if I open up the motor on my 750. Good luck!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 06:26:16 PM »
Would this process work on primary and cam chains...???

Mick
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 06:27:14 PM »
Quote from: cafe2be on May 28, 2009, 06:23:32 PM
no no mc, not being sarcastic. It was way too much hp for stock gears. I was impressed with the fact that it seemed to have made it 2x as strong. Will probably cyro as much as possible if I open up the motor on my 750. Good luck!
Thanks for clearing that up.

But what you're saying is before the cryo a set of gears lasted a week?! I'd always heard Jetta guys were wildmen.  :D

The literature is up on treating trannys as they should last longer and present much less HP loss thru friction.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 06:33:52 PM by MCRider »
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 06:32:12 PM »
Quote from: retro rocket on May 28, 2009, 06:26:16 PM
Would this process work on primary and cam chains...???

Mick
Chains as such have never come up in the literature as a specific item to treat. But I'll ask the proprietor, and maybe email some other outfits to get a consensus.

Chains having many moving parts and I think of different materials from the sideplates to the rollers, to the pins, may not be appropriate but thats a wildass guess.

When I asked about the rocker stands, he was concerned that they may be made of different materials, bearing surfaces, etc.

The process is essentially to dip them in liquid nitrogen. But the science is to do it in a way so as not to suffer from thermal shock.

I'll ask about the chains soon.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 06:36:23 PM »
Thanks MC...

Mick
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Offline cafe2be

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 06:50:27 PM »
jetta men are reaalll wild. haha! I am a boost head. nitrous, supercharged and turbo vw's The gears were supposed to work with cryo treatment. Guys that have double stock HP were fine. When your producing 4x the amount over stock, that required another step.
I agree with you on chains. Not sure I would suggest that or it would even help or really be beneficial. I would be interested to know though. I know also when we sent out pistons and rods they had to be completely dismantled and not everything could be cryo'd.
MC, I am still very new to bikes. Is it a common thing to strip the kickstart shafts?
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 07:27:56 PM »
Quote from: cafe2be on May 28, 2009, 06:50:27 PM
jetta men are reaalll wild. haha! I am a boost head. nitrous, supercharged and turbo vw's The gears were supposed to work with cryo treatment. Guys that have double stock HP were fine. When your producing 4x the amount over stock, that required another step.
I agree with you on chains. Not sure I would suggest that or it would even help or really be beneficial. I would be interested to know though. I know also when we sent out pistons and rods they had to be completely dismantled and not everything could be cryo'd.
MC, I am still very new to bikes. Is it a common thing to strip the kickstart shafts?
I love the car stuff, just never got personally involved. Sounds like yours is pretty intense!

The only KS shaft I've known of that broke was the CB750. My obsession with the kickstarter shaft comes from the early days of big bore high compression kick only engines that RC Engineering was building. He had a shot peened, heat treated KS shaft in his catalogue of parts. In my current build, I want to incorporate as much of the old trick nostalgic parts as I can if i need them or not. The heat treating was not economically possible, so Ecosse intro'd the Cryo treatment.

The shaft is about 12 inches long, (too long), and 1 inch in diameter at its greatest point, but it varied. Imagine a 200lb man coming down hard enough with enough engine resistance to twist that thing in half. But it happened. In my short tenure in shops back in the 70s, I'd seen 2. Someone posted here a while back that he had picked up a basket case CB750, and the kickstart pedal was not staying up. Wanted to know if a spring was broke or something. So that made 3.  :D

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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline MCRider

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2009, 07:43:03 PM »
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Cryogenic Treatment complete-comments
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2009, 07:59:07 PM »
Thanks mate, i will check that out later.... ;)

Mick
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750 K2 1000cc
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.
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