Author Topic: No tinfoil hat here  (Read 6058 times)

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Offline Ecosse

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2009, 10:16:46 PM »
i hate you all for turning this into a political thread!

 ;D i sympathize hef but any video implying a hidden truth about 9/11, and that the gov isn't on the up and up, is inherently political.

and if i'm wise i'd just slink out the door at this point. i don't have fun in these things.
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2009, 11:44:14 PM »
Have I mentioned the moon landing this week ::) ::) ::)    ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Ecosse

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2009, 11:58:51 PM »
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2009, 12:58:48 AM »
Thanks. Going to bed with a smile on my face ;D

Offline Caaveman82

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2009, 11:36:40 AM »
Bah,

Ecosse quotes the ONE INTELLIGENT THING that Chomsky ever said -- I SAY "WOO HOO!!!"

Why doesn't Chomsky just come out and say that the biggest beneficiary of terrorism is BIG GOVERNMENT, rather than using euphemisms like "power systems"?

If you take Chomsky's thinking just one step further, the left-wing is much more likely to have perpetrated the conspiracy, since BIG GOVERNMENT is what the left has always promoted.  Don't forget, true CONSERVATIVES HATE BIG GOVERNMENT.  Some of the leftists here may be surprised to learn that many true conservatives are unhappy with GWB due to the excessive government spending and the vast expansion of government that occured during his presidency.  A good conservative would have put an end to the ridiculous sub-prime lending that caused the recession, too.

Of course, the left could have easily funded Al Qaeda and directed them to commit the attacks on September 11, 2001 as well as the planned attack on the Sears Tower, Fort Dix, etc.  That actually seems to make a whole lot of sense, with the republican president having been in office at the time.  As we also know, the Obama administration enjoys flying airplanes over Manhattan at low altitudes.

Come to think of it, Chomsky is wrong about just about everything else, so I'm starting to think there's something to this conspiracy theory stuff. ;D ;D ;D

See Ecosse, you take what some one else has said and then blow it way out of proportion or take everything out of context or just completely make up your own theory and that's how debates are now. Just like big brother. Simple easy stuff man.
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2009, 12:58:40 PM »
3 shots in 4.5 to 7 seconds with an Italian bolt action rifle at 100+ yards on a moving target.
Oswald was only graded a marksman in rifle certifications in the Marines.
You do the math on that one.

I dunno Caave, never personally seen or shot the type of rifle that allegedly killed JFK but a guy that I talk to at work knows a lot about firearms said his brother had one back in the day and shot it quite a bit said they were crappy guns at best. I trust this guy's opinion on guns, he knows quite a lot about them.
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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2009, 01:12:35 PM »
3 shots in 4.5 to 7 seconds with an Italian bolt action rifle at 100+ yards on a moving target.
Oswald was only graded a marksman in rifle certifications in the Marines.
You do the math on that one.

I dunno Caave, never personally seen or shot the type of rifle that allegedly killed JFK but a guy that I talk to at work knows a lot about firearms said his brother had one back in the day and shot it quite a bit said they were crappy guns at best. I trust this guy's opinion on guns, he knows quite a lot about them.

Honestly though, 100 yard moving target is not that impressive, even for a marksmen. Most civilan shooters would probably fail the rifle qualifications of the Marine Corps without proper instruction. Even the one's that "are really really good". Not to mention, determination is a mother funker. I am not disagreeing with you but I'm not agreeing either. I'm pretty neutral on the subject, but bringing the rifle and the shooter into question doesn't sell it for me.
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Offline Damfino

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2009, 01:16:19 PM »
 ;D

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2009, 01:18:39 PM »
I don't know the actual distances, they are probably farther than 100 yards.
I'm just saying the facts they presented in the JFK Warren commision just like the 9/11 commission made me say BULLSH1T!!! THESE PEOPLE ARE LYING TO US!!!
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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2009, 02:03:29 PM »
I don't know the actual distances, they are probably farther than 100 yards.
I'm just saying the facts they presented in the JFK Warren commision just like the 9/11 commission made me say BULLSH1T!!! THESE PEOPLE ARE LYING TO US!!!

I get what your saying, but it is still not that hard man. It was a fairly simple shot.

Also take the best story you ever read and put a crappy drawing of a really horrible disfigured unicorn on the cover. Does the story suddenly suck?

I agree these people are morons. I don't think they have all the capacity to lie that we think they do. I think we might have about half the truth mixed with lies. Sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2009, 02:09:42 PM »
Now you have gone to far sir!!!!!!!!!!!!  Unicorns are NEVER to be disparaged again, get it!

Offline Caaveman82

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2009, 02:25:03 PM »
Now you have gone to far sir!!!!!!!!!!!!  Unicorns are NEVER to be disparaged again, get it!

I'm sorry I don't want to piss off the Unicorn Liberation Front
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Offline sangyo soichiro

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2009, 02:44:26 PM »
I agree with the Caave here on the JFK thing.  The 'impossible shot' theory is not a strong argument. 


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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2009, 02:53:41 PM »
This is even a little more far fetched than what the crazies believe but this is my theory.

JFK was a man's man. He liked to do manly things. Drink, party, gamble, womanize. Those were still the days when putting a hit on some one was second nature, even if it was a president. I think they knew he was going to be killed, just not by Lee Harvey. So when Harvey beat whoever was supposed to kill him to the punch, they already had all that "magic bullet" crap made up, so instead of changing the story the CIA said "Eff it, just roll with it.". We can lie to these stupid sheep. People were not as skeptical of their shady government at the time so they bought it. Fast forward and after decades of over analyzing this crap, the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Lee shot him, but the evidence doesn't add up because the evidence was manufactured to begin with.

That's my theory.
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Offline Big Bob

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2009, 06:23:26 PM »
I knew that, watching the footage live on TV.
I've never believed the 'true story' we were all fed.
Does that make me smarter than everyone?   ;D
No... it just means I'm not a gullible person able to be spoon fed a crapload of BS.



ok... so this ones all over the net and has a rap sheet a mile long.
but still... i got nailed as well, i remember clicking the link several months ago... had to get a whole new paypal card.

now, that should fix it, correct?  if they're trying to charge to my card that is now a different number, they shouldn't be able to.  right?

i feel stupid... but it was only a dollar and they promised me some fantastic snake oil... problem is they kept charging and charging and charging w/out my consent and i didn't get #$%*! 

so, it can't be the real google, can it?

paypal seemed to have no knowledge of what i was talking about and they said the charges weren't really coming out even though i could see on my screen that they were... so is it a paypal scam?

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2009, 07:19:02 PM »


I dunno Caave, never personally seen or shot the type of rifle that allegedly killed JFK but a guy that I talk to at work knows a lot about firearms said his brother had one back in the day and shot it quite a bit said they were crappy guns at best. I trust this guy's opinion on guns, he knows quite a lot about them.

This is the thing that bugs me about this type of stuff.  I knew a guy who knew a guy who 20 years ago.....it has absolutely no validity or credibility.  It would not even stand up in Judge Judy's courtroom. ;D
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 07:21:21 PM by srust58 »

Offline edbikerii

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2009, 07:45:07 PM »
OK, so you call it "taking it out of context", but I call it "seeing it from a different perspective".

It is quite plausible that there are many left-wing wackos funding terrorism, maybe even funneling money (and instructions) to Al Queda.  Who else would be funding Al Queda's terrorism?  Let's not forget that SOMEBODY IS DEFINITELY DOING IT, or Al Queda would not exist.

When you think about who had the most to gain from terrorism, it makes perfect sense.  I'd just like to thank Chomsky for encouraging us to think about it without the usual "bush conspiracy" bull crap.

Bah,

Ecosse quotes the ONE INTELLIGENT THING that Chomsky ever said -- I SAY "WOO HOO!!!"

Why doesn't Chomsky just come out and say that the biggest beneficiary of terrorism is BIG GOVERNMENT, rather than using euphemisms like "power systems"?

If you take Chomsky's thinking just one step further, the left-wing is much more likely to have perpetrated the conspiracy, since BIG GOVERNMENT is what the left has always promoted.  Don't forget, true CONSERVATIVES HATE BIG GOVERNMENT.  Some of the leftists here may be surprised to learn that many true conservatives are unhappy with GWB due to the excessive government spending and the vast expansion of government that occured during his presidency.  A good conservative would have put an end to the ridiculous sub-prime lending that caused the recession, too.

Of course, the left could have easily funded Al Qaeda and directed them to commit the attacks on September 11, 2001 as well as the planned attack on the Sears Tower, Fort Dix, etc.  That actually seems to make a whole lot of sense, with the republican president having been in office at the time.  As we also know, the Obama administration enjoys flying airplanes over Manhattan at low altitudes.

Come to think of it, Chomsky is wrong about just about everything else, so I'm starting to think there's something to this conspiracy theory stuff. ;D ;D ;D

See Ecosse, you take what some one else has said and then blow it way out of proportion or take everything out of context or just completely make up your own theory and that's how debates are now. Just like big brother. Simple easy stuff man.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2009, 08:00:53 PM »
OK, so you call it "taking it out of context", but I call it "seeing it from a different perspective".

It is quite plausible that there are many left-wing wackos funding terrorism, maybe even funneling money (and instructions) to Al Queda.  Who else would be funding Al Queda's terrorism?  Let's not forget that SOMEBODY IS DEFINITELY DOING IT, or Al Queda would not exist.

When you think about who had the most to gain from terrorism, it makes perfect sense.  I'd just like to thank Chomsky for encouraging us to think about it without the usual "bush conspiracy" bull crap.

Bah,

Ecosse quotes the ONE INTELLIGENT THING that Chomsky ever said -- I SAY "WOO HOO!!!"

Why doesn't Chomsky just come out and say that the biggest beneficiary of terrorism is BIG GOVERNMENT, rather than using euphemisms like "power systems"?

If you take Chomsky's thinking just one step further, the left-wing is much more likely to have perpetrated the conspiracy, since BIG GOVERNMENT is what the left has always promoted.  Don't forget, true CONSERVATIVES HATE BIG GOVERNMENT.  Some of the leftists here may be surprised to learn that many true conservatives are unhappy with GWB due to the excessive government spending and the vast expansion of government that occured during his presidency.  A good conservative would have put an end to the ridiculous sub-prime lending that caused the recession, too.

Of course, the left could have easily funded Al Qaeda and directed them to commit the attacks on September 11, 2001 as well as the planned attack on the Sears Tower, Fort Dix, etc.  That actually seems to make a whole lot of sense, with the republican president having been in office at the time.  As we also know, the Obama administration enjoys flying airplanes over Manhattan at low altitudes.

Come to think of it, Chomsky is wrong about just about everything else, so I'm starting to think there's something to this conspiracy theory stuff. ;D ;D ;D

See Ecosse, you take what some one else has said and then blow it way out of proportion or take everything out of context or just completely make up your own theory and that's how debates are now. Just like big brother. Simple easy stuff man.

LMAO ;D  Using your logic, how about right-wing wackos.  Everyone knows they are the party of big business so they have the money to spare so it's quite plausible.  Now doesn't that sound just as ridiculous?  Now it's about time to inject a little sense into this whole thing.  It is and was the Saudi's stupid!   
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 08:12:54 PM by srust58 »

Offline Ecosse

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2009, 08:03:53 PM »
here's an interesting read.

conspiracy theory guide

1. Initiated on the basis of limited, partial or circumstantial evidence;
Conceived in reaction to media reports and images, as opposed to, for example, thorough knowledge of the relevant forensic evidence.

2. Addresses an event or process that has broad historical or emotional impact;
Seeks to interpret a phenomenon which has near-universal interest and emotional significance, a story that may thus be of some compelling interest to a wide audience.

3. Reduces morally complex social phenomena to simple, immoral actions;
Impersonal, institutional processes, especially errors and oversights, interpreted as malign, consciously intended and designed by immoral individuals.

4. Personifies complex social phenomena as powerful individual conspirators;
Related to (3) but distinct from it, deduces the existence of powerful individual conspirators from the 'impossibility' that a chain of events lacked direction by a person.

5. Allots superhuman talents or resources to conspirators;
May require conspirators to possess unique discipline, unrepentant resolve, advanced or unknown technology, uncommon psychological insight, historical foresight, unlimited resources, etc.

6. Key steps in argument rely on inductive, not deductive reasoning;
Inductive steps are mistaken to bear as much confidence as deductive ones.

Appeals to 'common sense';
Common sense steps substitute for the more robust, academically respectable methodologies available for investigating sociological and scientific phenomena.

7. Exhibits well-established logical and methodological fallacies;
Formal and informal logical fallacies are readily identifiable among the key steps of the argument.

8. Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge.

9. Is upheld by persons with demonstrably false conceptions of relevant science;
At least some of the story's believers believe it on the basis of a mistaken grasp of elementary scientific facts.

10. Enjoys zero credibility in expert communities;
Academics and professionals tend to ignore the story, treating it as too frivolous to invest their time and risk their personal authority in disproving.

11. Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

1. Arrogance. They are always fact-seekers, questioners, people who are trying to discover the truth: sceptics are always "sheep", patsies for Messrs Bush and Blair etc.

2. Relentlessness. They will always go on and on about a conspiracy no matter how little evidence they have to go on or how much of what they have is simply discredited. (Moreover, as per 1. above, even if you listen to them ninety-eight times, the ninety-ninth time, when you say "no thanks", you'll be called a "sheep" again.) Additionally, they have no capacity for precis whatsoever. They go on and on at enormous length.

3. Inability to answer questions. For people who loudly advertise their determination to the principle of questioning everything, they're pretty poor at answering direct questions from sceptics about the claims that they make.

4. Fondness for certain stock phrases. These include Cicero's "cui bono?" (of which it can be said that Cicero understood the importance of having evidence to back it up) and Conan Doyle's "once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth". What these phrases have in common is that they are attempts to absolve themselves from any responsibility to produce positive, hard evidence themselves: you simply "eliminate the impossible" (i.e. say the official account can't stand scrutiny) which means that the wild allegation of your choice, based on "cui bono?" (which is always the government) is therefore the truth.

5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.

6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

7. Inability to withdraw. It's a rare day indeed when a conspiracy theorist admits that a claim they have made has turned out to be without foundation, whether it be the overall claim itself or any of the evidence produced to support it. Moreover they have a liking (see 3. above) for the technique of avoiding discussion of their claims by "swamping" - piling on a whole lot more material rather than respond to the objections sceptics make to the previous lot.

8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it's “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

10. It's always a conspiracy. And it is, isn't it? No sooner has the body been discovered, the bomb gone off, than the same people are producing the same old stuff, demanding that there are questions which need to be answered, at the same unbearable length. Because the most important thing about these people is that they are people entirely lacking in discrimination. They cannot tell a good theory from a bad one, they cannot tell good evidence from bad evidence and they cannot tell a good source from a bad one. And for that reason, they always come up with the same answer when they ask the same question.

A person who always says the same thing, and says it over and over again is, of course, commonly considered to be, if not a monomaniac, then at very least, a bore.

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2009, 08:21:00 PM »
Yes, "big business" has the money, but they have nothing to gain from terrorism, and everything to lose.  No sense there.

Besides, right-wingers HATE BIG GOVERNMENT, so why would they do something to make government bigger, and against a republican administration at that?


LMAO ;D  Using your logic, how about right-wing wackos.  Everyone knows they are the party of big business so they have the money to spare so it's quite plausible.  Now doesn't that sound just as ridiculous?  Now it's about time to inject a little sense into this whole thing.  It is and was the Saudi's stupid!   
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Offline Ecosse

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2009, 08:24:11 PM »
plenty on the left have deep pockets too. soros for one.


i'm just sayin'.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2009, 08:26:19 PM »
Buffet, too (richest man in the world).

plenty on the left have deep pockets too. soros for one.


i'm just sayin'.
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Offline Ecosse

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2009, 08:38:55 PM »
Buffet, too (richest man in the world).

plenty on the left have deep pockets too. soros for one.


i'm just sayin'.

 :D :D
i think the point here is that two (sides) can play the conspiracy game well. so, the saying those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones seems appropriate. if the argument was that bush did the 9/11 deal, ed makes a no less valid counter charge.

but i also stress the fed fat cats love when we lil people fight among our selves. i have my opinions of certain political persuasions but since i multi-task like cr@p, my concern is those dopes in dc.

the local government is no better either.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2009, 09:01:05 PM »
Yes, "big business" has the money, but they have nothing to gain from terrorism, and everything to lose.  No sense there.

Besides, right-wingers HATE BIG GOVERNMENT, so why would they do something to make government bigger, and against a republican administration at that?


LMAO ;D  Using your logic, how about right-wing wackos.  Everyone knows they are the party of big business so they have the money to spare so it's quite plausible.  Now doesn't that sound just as ridiculous?  Now it's about time to inject a little sense into this whole thing.  It is and was the Saudi's stupid!   

Do I have to do this again?  LMAO.  Halliburton, KBR, Bechtel, Dyn Corp, Carlye Group, Lockheed, and the many other defense contractors, all big business, making a killing on the GWOT.  Who was the CEO of Halliburton for may years?  Dick Cheney.  Who is tied to the Carlye Group? The Bush family. Bechtel reads like a Republican Who's Who. Rudy Gulliani and Assoc. making millions in security consulting fees from DHS.  Nothing to gain?

Why would the "wacko lefties" fund a terror operation that could well have taken place under a Gore administration.  Right up to the election of 2000 the Dems where fairly confident of winning.  Are you telling me they put this whole thing together in 9 months after Bush was appointed President?  Take a minute, clear your head and think about that one.

I have never thought that Bush or the Republicans did this either. That isn't the point I am arguing.  I just have to poke holes in these silly arguments and sometimes the best way to do it is to use the same silly logic to show how the "other" side could have done it just as well.    Aside from some fringe nutcases I doubt there is anybody right or left that would hate their country so much as to participate in something this terrible.

You people need to get a grip on facts and logic.  Right wing wackos, left wing wackos, how about SOHC wackos. ;D


« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 09:36:52 PM by srust58 »

Offline Ecosse

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Re: No tinfoil hat here
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2009, 09:06:42 PM »
how about SOHC wackos. ;D

now that's just mean. true, but mean.  :D
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