Author Topic: Permanent magnet alt regulator?  (Read 3840 times)

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Offline Pinhead

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Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« on: June 01, 2009, 10:53:47 PM »
I'm trying to get my friend's Virago going and one of the things I've found is a bad regulator/rectifier.

Getting cheap parts for the SOHC Honda alternators was easy since 99% of road vehicles out there use the same type of charging system. However, since the Virago uses a permanent magnet alternator, my choices have been drastically reduced. I don't even know where to start looking. :/

I've read that Honda's R/R's from the Honda cm-400/450 twins or cx-500/650 twins have a better built and more efficient R/R than the Virago's.

Does anyone know of any other sources? I'm trying to go as cheap as possible since it's not even my bike (I've already spent more money on his bike getting it going this year than I have on mine).

The Ford R/R for our SOHC bikes was $13. I'm looking for something like that. :D
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2009, 11:25:35 PM »
pretty doubtful you'll get an automotive one, they don't use permanent magnets.
 CB/CM is most reliable one I've seen for PM system

PJ
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 10:43:25 AM »
Ok, another question... What are all of the Hondas that use a permanent magnet alternator and what years?
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 10:55:48 AM »
You gotta be joking?
 Going to have to do your own research on that one.
 Start in 1959 and finish in 2009.
 It would be easier to see which are EMS systems (350/400/500/550/650/750 inline 4's for starters)
PJ
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 11:40:30 AM »
Are PM alternators more common than EM alternators in motorcycles? Seems strange that autos started using EM alternators in the '50s and never looked back, while PM alternators are common in motorcycles up to the '80s and maybe even later...
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2009, 09:47:57 PM »
Depends on size of bike and power output of alternator.
Just about all modern sportbikes have rare earth magnets which are lighter and more powerful than old style PM systems.

PJ
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2009, 10:07:33 PM »
Are PM alternators more common than EM alternators in motorcycles? Seems strange that autos started using EM alternators in the '50s and never looked back, while PM alternators are common in motorcycles up to the '80s and maybe even later...

Alternators are 30 amps and up. PM aren't really strong enough to make a field this big without some serious poundage added.  Also, not many cars have a kick start, where self power generation is kinda important.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009, 07:08:31 PM »
The GL1100/1200 has this type of alternator (3 phase PM). The stock reg/rect was known to occasionally fail and there are several aftermarket ones made. The GL has a pretty high power PM alternator, and the excess power is wasted as heat in the regulator. Failures are probably heat related. Your bike has a lower power alternator and presumably the regulator would be wasting less power, so a stock one from a wrecker should last approximately forever. The aftermarket ones available claim to be more durable in GL service, I don't know if they are "smarter" active circuits that don't waste the extra power or just better capable of dealing with the heat. The aftermarket ones are about $100.00, used OEM ones are usually about $25.00.

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2009, 10:19:43 PM »
Most of the articles that I've read with regards to PM regulators, say that the regulator dumps excess current to ground. If that's the case, I can see how they would heat!

For some reason I find it hard to believe that OEM's would utilize "dump type" regulation. I would think they'd more closely resemble a linear power supply's regulation circuit (transformer-rectifier-regulator type of supply). I was wrong once before, though. ;)

Surely Honda's PM regulators are more efficient than "dump type" regulators that simply use a Zener to hold the voltage and dump the excess... How 'bout it, TT?
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2009, 11:44:00 PM »
Thats why they have fins on them.
Alternator is 'sized' to load so most of the time its breaking even and only putting a very small current to ground.
 You get problems when you change the loads.
 (unless you have a 1980's GS/GSX550, 16 valve motor, they just cooked rec/reg on a regular basis)

PJ
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2009, 12:43:39 AM »
I spent more time than I really wanted searching for a PM alternator regulator that WAS NOT shunt type.  There is no doubt they CAN be made.  But, it seems there is little market for them.  Shunt types likely have a far lower parts count, and assembly cost.   And they do not waste enough power to make a significant power load on the engine for a performance detriment.
The engine makes and wastes far more heat than a shunt regulator would.  So, why spend money on components that the consumer won't appreciate or desire?  The consumer wants low cost.  You can't simply raise the price to cover the higher component costs for a benefit the consumer doesn't care about having.  So, if the manufacturer did anyway, they would then eat into their profit margin.  I'd guess that the company would then find a different engineer, for designing a regulator.

You want cheap? You get Cheap!  And, that is a shunt regulator.   IMO

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 12:50:52 AM »
Thats why they have fins on them.
Alternator is 'sized' to load so most of the time its breaking even and only putting a very small current to ground.
 You get problems when you change the loads.
 (unless you have a 1980's GS/GSX550, 16 valve motor, they just cooked rec/reg on a regular basis)

PJ

Which somewhat illustrates my point. Take, for example, the Ford regulator that I put on my 650; it doesn't have any fins on it and in fact produces virtually no heat. It replaced a finned stock Honda part.

However, in a PM system all of the current has to pass through the regulator at all times; I can see why it would need fins.

HOWEVER, if you compare the basics of a permanent magnet alternator with a regulated linear power supply, the principles aren't too different. Both have to change a varying rectified AC input into a steady DC out without being able to change the input (unlike the EM type, which regulates the input before it's rectified). Most linear supplies' transformers output 18 to 24 volts which is then regulated down to 13.8v.

With this in mind, have you ever seen a linear power supply "shunt excess power to ground," as is described in most of PM alternator write-ups? If that were the case, the transformer in the linear supply (and also the stator in the PM alternator) would be effectively "shorted" and drawing max current whenever the supply is "on" and at an idle.

I spent more time than I really wanted searching for a PM alternator regulator that WAS NOT shunt type.  There is no doubt they CAN be made.  But, it seems there is little market for them.  Shunt types likely have a far lower parts count, and assembly cost.   And they do not waste enough power to make a significant power load on the engine for a performance detriment.
The engine makes and wastes far more heat than a shunt regulator would.  So, why spend money on components that the consumer won't appreciate or desire?  The consumer wants low cost.  You can't simply raise the price to cover the higher component costs for a benefit the consumer doesn't care about having.  So, if the manufacturer did anyway, they would then eat into their profit margin.  I'd guess that the company would then find a different engineer, for designing a regulator.

You want cheap? You get Cheap!  And, that is a shunt regulator.   IMO

Cheers,

Ok, so cost seems to be the main reason for shunt-type regulators. What do you think of a circuit similar to the one attached to act as a VR? It is a 20 amp variable regulator (the variable part can easily be removed to regulate it right at 13.8 or 14.4 volts). However, I would have to surmise that longevity would be superior to the shunt regulator.

Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2009, 01:49:59 AM »
generator equipped volkswagen r/r might work
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2009, 02:28:47 AM »
The LM338 is not a switching regulator.  It's a linear one. Each one is 5 amp capable, and the parallel operation scheme you've shown provides 20 Amp capacity.  But, lets say you feed it 40V DC, and it is set for a 14.5 V dc output.  The V differential is 25.5 V  (dropped across the four components) at 20 Amps is 510 watts dissipated into the 4 - LM338's heat sync.

I've used this part before in electronic circuits.  It's good at regulating.  But, not very efficient.  Unless you keep the input to output voltage differential small, it's going to make heat and waste power.  Thats' why it is offered in both a TO-220 package for light duty applications and a TO-3 Steel case unit for toasty ones.

I'm not saying won't work.  But, the shunt types will be less parts, less complexity, and possibly little or no heat advantage.

As for reliability/longevity.  The reliability of a unit goes down with the increased parts count.  Each component has a failure rate.  For example, say a resistor has a failure rate of 100 hours.  If you have 10 resistors your unit failure rating is 1 in 10 hours.  More components give a higher probability of unit failure.  I couldn't find a reliability rate spec for the LM338, quickly.  But, active components are usually lower numbers than passives, and higher operating temps lower their rating even further.  For an overall reliability rating, you select the lowest rated part, and reduce that number every time you add another part by a factorial of the added part's rating.  I can tell you it is NOT easy making high reliability products for mil spec installations, or critical communication installations.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline crazypj

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2009, 09:51:20 AM »
pinhead, you somewhat missed the point, the 650 is an EMF system so regulator is 'switching' power to rotor not shunting field output to ground (it grounds rotor to provide varying magnetic fields)
 The max its ever expected to handle on a 650 is about 3~4 amps at 12V (do a rotor amp draw to find out numbers, then full field it (bypass reg) and see what blows up   ;D)
 Did a Suzuki Katana a few days ago, it was putting out 17.5 V and 23amps @3,000rpm full fielded, pretty 'healthy' generator  ;)
 Max draw was 4.5 amps

PJ
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:53:38 AM by crazypj »
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Offline TomC

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 03:46:04 PM »
Hi Pinhead
     The Virago is three phase, right? Used or aftermarket motorcycle is about all your are going to find.
Hi Crazypj
     I have been playing with a very simple SCR based regulator on my Super 90, single phase. The open circuit voltage at redline is about 200 volts across two coils that are used when just the ignition is turned on. I have seen bright light from a 75 watt 110 volt bulb powered by these "6 Volt coils".
          TomC in Ohio
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Permanent magnet alt regulator?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2009, 07:06:36 PM »
Cool, I never saw more than 118v ac from a super 90 (we had 7 or 8 at one time, still have 2~3)
 All ours were 3 phase though? (1965, 66, 67, 69, 70)
 Still, as you say, pretty damn 'healthy' for 6v system  ;D

PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'