Topic: Mo the 80 CB650 Custom: "As the Spanner Turns..."

[manjisann]

I've learned the hard lesson, if you venture away from stock, you are going to trade something off somewhere.

I'm really please with how my bike has been running, she just keeps plugging along. I've used some of the tricks from the hypermilers to extend my mpg's. It's nothing drastic but every little bit helps.

I've been trying to figure out what this really irritating noise was that was coming from the front right of the engine. I checked my oil and found it was low, so I topped her off thinking maybe that was it. No dice, still an annoying noise. It took me a while but I realized it reminded me of sticking a baseball card in you bike spokes to simulate an engines noise, and it got worse as I revved higher. All today I've been mulling over what it could be,  I was concerned by a while that it might be something really bad like a valve or something. After a while it hit me, I believe it's the tack cable. When I got back to my uncles house and parked the bike, I hopped off and pulled on the tack tube and it comes out of the little thingy that holds it into the tack drive on the engine. I'm pretty sure now that is the noise I've been hearing, which is fine since I have a new cable at home.

I hope you guys have had a chance to check out my trip blog, I'm a little behind on getting it posted. Stupid thing takes almost as long to post as it did to ride to the places and take pictures

Brandon

[JimJamerino]

It's funny how you gain an appreciation for small noises when you work on your own vehicles.  I'm glad you're putting the pieces together and figuring out what's wrong. 

Keep the shiny side up!

[The_Crippler]

It's funny how you gain an appreciation for small noises when you work on your own vehicles.

Amazing how much tunnel vision you can get with it, too...like, if you only run your machine around town for months and then hop on the highway...you can get convinced that something is wrong until you realize you're just not used to hearing RPMs that high.

[manjisann]

Amazing how much tunnel vision you can get with it, too...like, if you only run your machine around town for months and then hop on the highway...you can get convinced that something is wrong until you realize you're just not used to hearing RPMs that high.

Too True! Now that I've figured out that higher rpms seem to equal better gas mileage I have to constantly correct myself. I'm still kind of used to trying to keep the rpms around 4k. That darn ticking noise from the tach sure doesn't make me want to keep the rpms up either.

It's funny how you gain an appreciation for small noises when you work on your own vehicles.  I'm glad you're putting the pieces together and figuring out what's wrong.

Yeah, I'm kinda paranoid that she'll blow up or something so I keep listening for that tell tale ticking noise    Seriously though, it's true, if you wrench on your own machines and actually care about keeping them going, little odd noises really eat at ya until you figure out what they are.

Brandon

[Frankenkit]

oh thanks for reminding me to go out and look at my speedo cable. Brand new cable, waving back and forth by 5+mph... ?  methinks it needs lubed.

[Soos]

 

You should do more 8,000 rpm riding me thinks....
10k rpm with your 4-4 exhaust should sound SWEET!   




I hate air leaks!  The carbs I am running have little tubes sticking up (for vacuum balancing) and the rubber covers I had on them were cracking bad. I changed them before this last tank of gas, and did 192.8 miles on 3.836 gallons(91 octane) for a whopping 50.26 mpg.
Sad I gained nearly 5mpg by replacing $0.45 worth of little rubber covers.



l8r

[JimJamerino]

You should do more 8,000 rpm riding me thinks....

I'm really glad I finished the sentence.

Sturgis Rally week is coming up, and I often see/hear the phrase, "Ride it like you stole it!"  I much prefer to ride it like I own it.

[manjisann]

Well it turns out that ticking noise that I thought was coming from my tach cable wasn't what I thought. I opened the sprocket cover to see how the oil pump had blown and found a very unfortunate thing.

I'll never know for sure if the ticking noise was related to this or not, but the upper and lower cases are now shot. I must have thrown a bearing or something. This makes my worst case scenario look like the preferable option. Guess I'll be seeing if the spare engine is any good, or trying to source an running engine now. At least this happened on the way home and only a few hours from home. Things could have ended much worse. (If you can't tell I'm trying to use the power of positive thinking, not sure if it's working or not.)

Brandon

[The_Crippler]

Oh, dude...that sucks.

With the other engine - I know it's a lot of work, but...

If the case is "all" that's wrong with this engine, and you don't know if the other one works (and if you can't source a running one) you think that you might be able swap the parts from the working engine into the other case?  (again, a lot of work, but...)

Do you know what caused the case to fail?  Is a bad baring something that can bust through?

[manjisann]

Yeah, not super thrilled but I suppose it could have ended much worse. I haven't really pulled anything else out of the engine, as once I saw this I knew it wasn't going to be a happy ending.

I did check and was able to turn the other engine by hand, so at least I know it's not locked up. Unfortunately my truck developed a severe radiator fluid leak when my mom drove down to pick my stranded butt up, so that's priority numero uno, got to figure out where my truck is pissing fluid from. I have a bad feeling it's the water pump, so it's likely to be an all day fix. I think I can do it though, which saves me like $300 in mechanics fee's, which will go into getting my bike running again.

I could take the cases from the spare engine, but that seems like twice as much work as necissary. Worst case scenario, I found some empty cases on eBay for about $100 from a guy here locally, so I may just do that. I'm crossing my fingers that either the spare engine is working or needs minimal work to get it going, OR that I can find a good working engine.

I'm just trying to maintain a positive attitude about the whole thing. I'm alive and unhurt, and I'm sure that with what I've learned, the Clymer manual, and this forum, I'll be able to get her working again pretty quick. And hey, it's all part of the motorcycleing adventure right 

Brandon

[Hush]

I'm trying to figure what has gone wrong Brandon, the pictures you posted are of the starter motor and oil pump area but I don't see any damage or massive oil leaks?
Maybe once you feel better (I know I'd be feeling pretty sick) you could outline exactly what has gone kabluee.

[manjisann]

Hush, if you look to the left of the oil pump you will see a hole about the diameter of my pinky finger in the lower crank case. To the left of the starter motor is a piece that was pushed up by something and there is a tear in the crank case. As to what caused it, I'm guessing a bearing or something came loose and made violent impact with the case.

As for how I feel about it, I feel amazingly calm and collected. I had 6 hours in the desert sun to think about the situation, and other things, and I decided to be somewhat optimistic. At the time I thought I had just seized my top end, but after seeing that hole and such I'm realizing things could have ended with me in the hospital or the morgue. I'm alive and healthy, I have the skills to fix it, my family is supportive, and my SOHC4 family will help fill in whatever knowledge I lack, so I'm in a good place really. Also, I checked and my spare engine turns over by hand, and I pulled the left valve cover and found some oil and shiny metal bits, so there is a very real posibility that all she needs is an oil change and a tune up and she'll be good to go. But no matter what, I'm pretty sure I'll get my baby back on the road and have many more miles of adventures. AND I now have that catastrophic breakdown that seems to happen in all good motorcycle touring stories, so I'm a bonafide biker dude now 

I'll be posting autopsy results eventually. For now my priority is getting my baby back on the road as quickly and inexpensively as possible. I'm just glad I never got around to tearing the cylinders out of the spare engine for Soos to bore out. Hmm maybe lazyness is a gift

Keep The Shiney Side Up,

Brandon

[The_Crippler]

Like Hush, I had a little trouble spotting the problem at first, especially in the last photo - I didn't realize you were pulling the cable aside and not pointing.   

Might want to draw some circles on there if people are still having issues.

[manjisann]

Ahh, sorry, with the engine still in the frame it's hard to get a better angle. I'll try and get better pics once I get her out of the frame.

So, what may be some encouraging results. I got home from work and was too lazy to mount the spare engine in the engine holder I have, but I did do some cleaning and checking of bits. I blew all the pine needles and other debris out of the engine, paying special attention to the spark plug areas as I really didn't want anything falling in that shouldn't be in there. I took off the other two valve covers (the right side and main one) and found clean shiny looking metal. I spun the rotor around by hand more, and though there was resistance in some parts, it mostly spun well and I think the resistance was due to compression of the pistons. I was just going to leave it at that, but my curiosity got the better of me and I pulled the battery out of the bike and hooked it straight up to the starter. Member Gordon said to hook the negative to the engine and the postive to the starter, so I ran a piece of allthread through one of the engine mounting holes with a battery cable on it connected to the negative, and then just touched the starter motor cable to the positive side, AND SHE TURNED OVER!!!! I had my Harbor Freight compression tester in cylinder 1 and got 100psi. Moved it over to cylinder 2 and got 100 psi, and then the oil plug below the rotor blew out and my pant leg was covered in oil. I had never replaced the stator cover from when I scavenged parts out of it and forgot all about that pesky plug. I decided not to press my luck any further and just be cheered by the results so far.

My only concern right now is there seems to be some oil on plug 2, but since it tested the same pressure as 1 I'm wondering if it's not really a problem? I have no idea how long this engine sat outside, the case paint is flaking off in places so I'd imagine it was a while. I've decided to not worry about anything that's just a cosmetic issue (flaking paint, cosmetic, unless someone decides to inform me that it could cause damage). At this point I think I just want to get her running reliably, whether that is accomplished by a simple tune and oil change, or doing a top end rebuild ( I'm crossing my fingers that isn't necissary, but the oil on the plug does have me a wee bit concerned, and you guys have to have noticed by now that I tend to just expect the worst.) I'll put the empty cover back on the rotor so it will hold the oil plug in and check cylinders 3-4. Since it's out of the frame I may go ahead and remove the valve cover and inspect the cam chain and chain tensioner. I'll also probably put her up on the engine stand, plug all the various holes that I don't want water going into, and give her a bath, she has a fair about of grime on the oil pan, and is just dirty in general.

Is there anything else anyone would suggest doing? Since the outside is so weathered I'm a little worried that the other seals may be pretty hashed as well, but I won't know for sure until I put her in the frame and get her running. That will be a couple days away at least since I think I'd better fix the radiator fluid leak in my truck first. I love not having any vehicle payments, but it's a serious drag having old vehicles some times.

Brandon

[Hush]

You'd be suprised how well these Honda motors seal themselves up and how little most need to get them running again mate.
That hole in your motor looks strange, I would like to know what can come adrift to cause that?
Maybe a cam chain flailing around? Let us know when you find the cause.
I'd do bugger all to the other motor, change the oil and filter, slap the plugs from your blown motor in it and stick it in the frame...........good to go....if it blows it wasn't going to be too reliable anyway.

[The_Crippler]

...if it blows it wasn't going to be too reliable anyway.

I gotta say...the closer Wraith gets to the road, the more and more I get sensitive to these threads...Not sure if a lot of people say it, or if I'm just noticing it more, but I keep seeing comments about people having their "reliable" bike and their SOHC, or threads about blown engines and such...and now that Brandon's has gone kerblooey...

...I might need someone talk me off the edge here.  What happened to our bullet-proof, run-forever engines I heard about when I got here.

[JimJamerino]

@ Crippler -- I think it's like when you buy a new car... and all of a sudden, you see your model everywhere when you never really noticed it before.  Your mind finds what it's looking for.

@ Brandon -- I'm really glad you're OK.  You're right... this could have been a LOT worse.  It's a good thing the cases were there to keep whatever hit them from hitting you.  It sounds like your spare engine might work out a bit like my "parts bike" did, where the spare becomes the rider.  At least you have the experience to swap them out without much fuss.

[The_Crippler]

@ Crippler -- I think it's like when you buy a new car... and all of a sudden, you see your model everywhere when you never really noticed it before.  Your mind finds what it's looking for.

Yeah, that's what I figured.  Consider me tentatively off the ledge.

[manjisann]

TC, I have a feeling that what happened to mine was one of those freak occurances. I don't know yet what caused the problem but I'll be tearing the buggered engine apart to find out and mod it with the pistons from Soos for my cafe. I'm really hoping the spare engine is in near perfect functional condition and runs, that would sure make me feel better. I've got plans to work on the spare tonight, got a buddy to come over and help me, so with any luck we'll get the spare cleaned, prepped and in the frame tonight. But I'll settle for any positive progress

Brandon

[manjisann]

Does anyone know where and if I can get just the stator cover gasket and the seal for the start cover?

Brandon

[Soos]

sadly enough... I might have one laying around.
Lemme check my gasket kit leftovers.(I used the head and bade gasket, and a few upper rebuild gaskets only I think)
I know I used the seal for the starter that came with the kit though.

l8r`

[manjisann]

Just did another oil change, but upped the oil to 20w-50, is this going to cause me any problems? I've heard it's better for long tours and could make the engine noise less. The new engine is quieter to an extent, but there's some weird noises that I need to figure out what it is. It's an odd whirring noise and I can't tell if it's the new Motion Pro tach cable or if it's topend noise. I'm trying to decide if I'm being paranoid or what. I'll have to figure it out over the next day or so.

AND my headlight seems to have bit the dust, both low and high beams. I find that peculiar, I'm wondering if maybe the charging system is causing problems, I'll have to check it again. I checked it when I installed the new engine, but who knows. Also, does anyone know where I can get a newer headlight that won't tax the charging system? I'll use my search fu over the next day or so, but if anyone knows off the top of their head and wouldn't mind saving me a few minutes it'd be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brandon

[The_Crippler]

Not sure how much it taxes the electrical system, and it's fairly spendy - but I am pleased with the headlight I put on my build.  Easy to install and super bright.

[manjisann]

I haven't had a chance to do much on the bike. I did check and my high beam works but low beam doesn't, so I think the bulb is about gone. All the fuses did check out. I did find a replacement on Z1 for $6 plus shipping, and since I don't do a ton of night riding I'll likely just go with that. I need to get the bike up and running again for as little money as possible ( hmm seems I've said that before  )

Also after posting it and talking to a few people I've decided I've been doing my valves all wrong. I set them so that I can just barely get the correct size through but it takes a ton of effort and wiggling it back and forth. I'm thinking this is incorrect and as the book says and a few others have pointed out, I need to set it so there's just a little resistance on the feeler gauge as I pull it out. I'm going to reset my valve clearances and hopefully this will help some. If that doesn't get rid of the odd topend noise I'm going to try and disconnect the motionpro tac cable and see what that does. I'm beginning to suspect the MotionPro cables of causing me a few problems. I tripped across a post by Hondaman stating if the Speedometer cable is even an inch shorter than stock it can cause severe needle bouncing... friggen great. Well that may answer that part of the equation.

Brandon

[manjisann]

Good news, sorta    I readjusted my valves and I'm really sure I had them wayyy to tight. I did the exhaust at .004 (as per hondaman and Soos's recommendation) and the intake at .0025 (my .002 feeler gauge was really super bent up and wasn't cooperating so I figured .0005 wouldn't make that big of a difference, anyone care to correct me?) One of the locking nuts must have been stripped or something because I couldn't get it to tighten down, it just kept spinning. Good thing I now have a spare 8 of them  so I took one from the buggered engine and was able to get it to seat properly. I started her up and she's back to sounding like an angry sewing machine, so I guess that's a good sign.  With the valves super tight it was actually pretty quiet, but now you can hear them clacking away a bit, I'm assuming this is normal?

I also figured out the headlight problem. I pulled the headlight and there was a little rubber cover on the back, took that off and too my surprise found that my headlight had already been converted to an H4, so the bulb is replaceable!! Pulled the bulb out and sure enough one of the filaments was toasted. Also, the ground wire had melted into the plastic a fair amount and there was scorching on the ground lead. I'm not really sure what caused this, I'm going to test for resistance and see if there is any since that's all I can think of. I cleaned the harness super good last year so not sure what happened.

Anyhow, I'm hoping the bugs are now ironed out. AND while I had the exhaust off  I redrilled the spring holder for my sidestand and I'm crossing my fingers that it is now fixed as well.

Brandon