Topic: Soda Pop Pod Filters

[TwoTired]

if honda designd the stock air box and exhaust for max hp then why did the honda racing teams not use them........ ..... ..... .....

Because the engine wasn't stock, was operating in an RPM band way higher than stock, and they could replace the entire engine after every race.  Did they even use the stock carbs?'

Furthermore they designed it to work with the stock components bore/stroke, carbs, and cam profile, for city and highway driving. dont fool yourselves into thinking that stock is supposed to give you the best performance.

They give you the best STREET performance (all operating RPM ranges, red line and below) along with engine longevity.
Don't fool yourself that pods or velocity stacks will give you the best performance for the street.  If you wish to flog your engine above red line, and keep it there, along with other engine mods which will also likely shorten it's operating life, then go ahead with pods/velocity stacks.

"Performance" does NOT mean only max HP at WOT.  There are other aspects of performance. And, tradeoffs to increase the performance area you are most interested in.   And, don't fool yourself that pods improve performance at normal street operating regimes.  Show me Dyno charts before and after the change if you are taking that position.  No one has shown that Pods, by themselves, have demonstrated a "performance" improvement.

Anyway, if you think a race bike is anything like a street bike, you ARE fooling yourself.

Cheers,

[billybobobrain]

if honda designd the stock air box and exhaust for max hp then why did the honda racing teams not use them........ ..... ..... .....

Because the engine wasn't stock, was operating in an RPM band way higher than stock, and they could replace the entire engine after every race.  Did they even use the stock carbs?'

Furthermore they designed it to work with the stock components bore/stroke, carbs, and cam profile, for city and highway driving. dont fool yourselves into thinking that stock is supposed to give you the best performance.

They give you the best STREET performance (all operating RPM ranges, red line and below) along with engine longevity.
Don't fool yourself that pods or velocity stacks will give you the best performance for the street.  If you wish to flog your engine above red line, and keep it there, along with other engine mods which will also likely shorten it's operating life, then go ahead with pods/velocity stacks.

"Performance" does NOT mean only max HP at WOT.  There are other aspects of performance. And, tradeoffs to increase the performance area you are most interested in.   And, don't fool yourself that pods improve performance at normal street operating regimes.  Show me Dyno charts before and after the change if you are taking that position.  No one has shown that Pods, by themselves, have demonstrated a "performance" improvement.

Anyway, if you think a race bike is anything like a street bike, you ARE fooling yourself.

Cheers,

Slow down there cowboy, someone just stated that stock exhaust and airbox was designed for max performance. I was just making a comperison. I totaly agree with what you just said.

[razor02097]

Slow down there cowboy, someone just stated that stock exhaust and airbox was designed for max performance. I was just making a comperison. I totaly agree with what you just said.

Its simple... Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to produce max power and torque from idle to redline.  You may say BS but think about this... they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!  The conundrum just got worse...


Please read the above again.  I ment that they designed the system to operate with max power and torque over a wide temp and altitude range.  I replaced my paper filter with a UNI... its running crazy lean.  I'm putting the paper filter in again cause I don't want to screw with jetting now that the local dyno shop isn't available.

Sorry for the confusion 

[Laminar]

Its simple... Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to produce max power and torque from idle to redline. 

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to provide the most appropriate performance in a variety of operating conditions.

[TwoTired]

I totaly agree with what you just said.

The contrarian in me has a problem with that.

 




Hey razor, let me guess, you have a 77 or 78 model with a non stock exhaust, right?

[razor02097]

Its simple... Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to produce max power and torque from idle to redline. 

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to provide the most appropriate performance in a variety of operating conditions.

   WTF I just said the same freekin thing

[HavocTurbo]

Hey razor, let me guess, you have a 77 or 78 model with a non stock exhaust, right?

Well I do...

And I run pods also. Well v-stacks.

Took me forever to get it right.

I did it for the seat of the pants performance feel. I'm not ashamed to say it.

[RichPugh]

I find the claim difficult to believe.  Honda used the same style carbs on the 500 and 550K/F models.  The carb differences for the models vary only in the jetting and adjustments among models.  They all used the same air filter.  Only displacement and exhaust changes were made to the machine's engine characteristics.  If what you say were to be believed, then all the differences Honda made to the carb's metering were for naught.

I'm new to this world of carburetor Honda SOHC4's but after doing a bunch of research prior to rebuilding my carbs, not only have I heard it from several classic honda enthusiasts that you shouldnt need to rejet when going with pod filters and different exhaust systems, but my bike is proof. You COULD benefit from going up to a 105 or 107.5 but its purely dependent on what pods/filter of course, what exhaust of course and how worn the carb needles are already. I've found out, stock bikes end up running rich after carb parts wear. My particular combination of pod filters and 4-into-1 exhaust runs great with the new, stock size 38/100 K&L jets, idle screw backed out 1-1/4 turn and floats set to 22mm... period. I've also JUST put over 50 miles on this combination so I realize I have a "break-in" period to go through... we'll see how well it stays.

I predict we'll find out that the Butt dyno you are using, is not quite as accurate as the ones Honda used to tune the bikes with changes to carb fuel metering.  There is also the fuel economy aspect to use as comparison for properly tuned, but not reported. Got any Dyno printouts to back your claim?  Did you have any seat time on the same bike in the stock configuration, with which to compare against?  Even if your bike runs well, how can you claim it runs as well or better than stock?

Agreed, butt dyno's are deceiving. SOunds and throttle response trick the butt into thinking a bike is or could be running better/faster/weaker/etc.. Yes I have had seat time in a stock configured 75 CB550K (exact same bike as mine practically) in perfect running order and my bike runs at least as well. I NEVER claimed it ran better than stock but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that it runs as well as stock and it does so looking better, sounding better and "feeling" better than stock.

Another point I would like to make is that you replaced Honda parts inside the carbs, with ones from a different manufacturer.  How do you know the parts specs, dimensions were the same?  How do you know it wasn't a happy coincidence that the part changes didn't happen to be just what you needed to have your engine run well? (Assuming it does run well, make the same power, and have the same fuel efficiency as the stock bike.)  Were the jets really the same diameter as stock, or just stamped that way?  Did the K&L kit have replacement emulsion tubes? If so, did they have the same air bleed hole placement and size as the stock ones?  Was the throttle valve orifice the same or larger than stock?

Seriously??? Is this just in the spirit of debate??? Youre suggesting I just got lucky with improperly stamped jets!? Or youre questioning whether the stock rebuild carb kits from K&L might be some magical kit that took into consideration that I was going to run pod filters and a 4-into-1 exhaust so they just stamped the jets 38 and 100 but secretly knew what size to make them so they'd run my bike better?... or that they would just stamp the stock numbers on larger jets to give you a rich mixture for the fun of it? I retained the original stock HONDA emulsion tubes and needles. From what I've been told, that is the best thing to do when rebuilding, unless theyre damaged or corroded or something, especially when running pod filters and free flowing exhaust combinations, as the wear on these parts can contribute to a slightly richer mixture.

And whats this about fuel efficiency? LOL... just because it has the same size jets does not mean it will have the same fuel efficiency, documented or undocumented. Fuel efficiency is dependent on too many variables. Even if you were to run 2 engines side by side on a dyno at the same load and at the same rpm, both with stock jetting, one with stock filter and exhaust and the other with pod filters and free flowing exhaust, you'd never have identical fuel efficiency. Throw that comparison in the garbage. I either get 50mpg or I dont LOL.

Further, why would you assume a 35mm pod from all manufacturers would have the same air flow/ restriction characteristics?  Or, that they would be similar to what the stock air filter arrangement provided?

I'm thinking your pure proof has some variables in it.  

Of COURSE my pure proof has variables LOL... My bike is a 76... his is a 78! I know my particular cocktail of parts and jetting is NOT going to be the same on my 76 as his 78 for the same outcome. I just used my experience for comparison because he said "As you would expect, when I put everything together I had a beautiful bike that ran like crap". My argument was that it isnt always "as expected".

I never said my 35mm pod filters had the same flow characteristics as any other filter or have similarities to a stock filter arrangement BUT I had my bike running great with NO filters... only the open carb inlet runners. So, with that being said, I still stand by my belief that you dont have to rejet, at least a 76 CB550K, when going with ANY pod filter combined with at least MY free flowing exhaust.

I do agree these Hondas are lovely, though.

Cheers,

Agreed

[RichPugh]

BTW, In lieu of our debate, the OP's "Trick/Tip" is a cool one LOL... I know the TWIN guys are doing it because its much harder to jet those when going with different filter setups. I also hope nothing gets sucked into the carbs haha

[razor02097]

Hey razor, let me guess, you have a 77 or 78 model with a non stock exhaust, right?

where you talking about the RM?  Its a 90 model with pro circuit exhaust

[mkramer1121]

Another point I would like to make is that you replaced Honda parts inside the carbs, with ones from a different manufacturer.  How do you know the parts specs, dimensions were the same?  How do you know it wasn't a happy coincidence that the part changes didn't happen to be just what you needed to have your engine run well? (Assuming it does run well, make the same power, and have the same fuel efficiency as the stock bike.)  Were the jets really the same diameter as stock, or just stamped that way?  Did the K&L kit have replacement emulsion tubes? If so, did they have the same air bleed hole placement and size as the stock ones?  Was the throttle valve orifice the same or larger than stock?

Seriously??? Is this just in the spirit of debate??? Youre suggesting I just got lucky with improperly stamped jets!? Or youre questioning whether the stock rebuild carb kits from K&L might be some magical kit that took into consideration that I was going to run pod filters and a 4-into-1 exhaust so they just stamped the jets 38 and 100 but secretly knew what size to make them so they'd run my bike better?... or that they would just stamp the stock numbers on larger jets to give you a rich mixture for the fun of it? I retained the original stock HONDA emulsion tubes and needles. From what I've been told, that is the best thing to do when rebuilding, unless theyre damaged or corroded or something, especially when running pod filters and free flowing exhaust combinations, as the wear on these parts can contribute to a slightly richer mixture.

And whats this about fuel efficiency? LOL... just because it has the same size jets does not mean it will have the same fuel efficiency, documented or undocumented. Fuel efficiency is dependent on too many variables. Even if you were to run 2 engines side by side on a dyno at the same load and at the same rpm, both with stock jetting, one with stock filter and exhaust and the other with pod filters and free flowing exhaust, you'd never have identical fuel efficiency. Throw that comparison in the garbage. I either get 50mpg or I dont LOL.

What TT is saying is that not all carb rebuild kits are built to the same standards as Honda did and designed.  If you compare parts from your rebuild kit to stock Honda you will notice differences, such as needle size, jet bore, etc....

[RichPugh]

What TT is saying is that not all carb rebuild kits are built to the same standards as Honda did and designed.  If you compare parts from your rebuild kit to stock Honda you will notice differences, such as needle size, jet bore, etc....

I gotcha. Well, no, I can not confirm the jets were the same size, only stamped the same... so if they were larger (for cautionary reasons... better to keep it rich than lean I suppose) I got lucky.

[Laminar]

  WTF I just said the same freekin thing

Not the same.

max power and torque from idle to redline.

most appropriate performance in a variety of operating conditions.

[razor02097]

  WTF I just said the same freekin thing

Not the same.

max power and torque from idle to redline.

most appropriate performance in a variety of operating conditions.

I lol

you keep quoting PARTS of my post.

 
Its simple... Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to produce max power and torque from idle to redline.  You may say BS but think about this... they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!  The conundrum just got worse...

actually read before you quote

they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!

 

[Johnny5]

I read most of this thread and blocking the intake air helps if your carbs are jetting too lean, but really all you needed to do was richen up your fuel mixture to compensate for more air flow.

When I was jetting my bike last year, and working on the midrange (needles), I found that if the mixture was a tad lean, I got the "crosswind surges" when a gust of wind hit the bike or driving the bike at a constant speed. You could feel it slightly, but it wasnt horrible. I then raised my needles a half slot (cause Im anal) with the smallest washer I could find to richen the mix up. And now, I never get the crosswind surge thing and the spark plugs are light tan in all the throttle ranges. It just takes patience and one adjustment at a time.

Just my .02.

[Laminar]

  WTF I just said the same freekin thing

Not the same.

max power and torque from idle to redline.

most appropriate performance in a variety of operating conditions.

I lol

you keep quoting PARTS of my post.

 
Its simple... Honda designed the stock airbox and exhaust to produce max power and torque from idle to redline.  You may say BS but think about this... they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!  The conundrum just got worse...

actually read before you quote

they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!
they also had to design a system that would work in a large range of temperatures and altitudes also!

 

And you're just saying the same thing over and over again.

Designing an engine isn't just about finding those maximum hp and torque numbers (in a large range of blah blah blah), but instead designing an engine whose characteristics best fit the vehicle it's going into. Look at the Suzuki B-King, for example. It uses the Hayabusa engine, but with less peak horsepower and torque. Why? Because Suzuki chose to tune it for better low-end power. Its horsepower and torque numbers weren't maximized, but its performance was most appropriate for its purpose.

So the engine wasn't necessarily designed for maximum horsepower and torque numbers, but it was tuned for the most appropriate performance (that would work in a large blah blah blah).

Make sense?

[razor02097]

2 completely different bikes 2 completely different situations and 2 bikes 30-40 years apart.

these bikes are not fuel injected, they where not built to abide by 2009 emission standards and they are from the factory built to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  With fuel injected bikes you don't need to worry about such things cause they can adapt.  A carburetor can not do that.   I did not say they where at absolute peak horsepower from the factory I said they squeezed the max power and torque to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  In other words they made them behave on the street for the average consumer.

I'm not trying to argue here

[Laminar]

2 completely different bikes 2 completely different situations and 2 bikes 30-40 years apart.

these bikes are not fuel injected, they where not built to abide by 2009 emission standards and they are from the factory built to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  With fuel injected bikes you don't need to worry about such things cause they can adapt.  A carburetor can not do that.   I did not say they where at absolute peak horsepower from the factory I said they squeezed the max power and torque to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  In other words they made them behave on the street for the average consumer.

Fantastic backpedal.

I'm not trying to argue here

For someone that's not trying, you're doing an awfully good job of it.

[Inkscars]

2 completely different bikes 2 completely different situations and 2 bikes 30-40 years apart.

these bikes are not fuel injected, they where not built to abide by 2009 emission standards and they are from the factory built to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  With fuel injected bikes you don't need to worry about such things cause they can adapt.  A carburetor can not do that.   I did not say they where at absolute peak horsepower from the factory I said they squeezed the max power and torque to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  In other words they made them behave on the street for the average consumer.

Fantastic backpedal.

I'm not trying to argue here

For someone that's not trying, you're doing an awfully good job of it.

Don't mind me, I'm just watching now because I made the mistake of commenting.

[HavocTurbo]

Call it what you want,

But manufacturers do NOT make engines with the max hp and tq. Regardless of application or altitude.

If they did, the aftermarket industry would be seriously smaller than it is when it comes to engine modifications.

[Laminar]

Don't mind me, I'm just watching now because I made the mistake of commenting.

Good catch, thanks.

[Inkscars]

Just keeping the forum grammatically safe for others.
It's just, part of the job.

[Laminar]

Just keeping the forum grammatically safe for others.
It's just, part of the job.

I appreciate that. Usually I reread my posts to see if I any words out, but that one slipped by me.

[razor02097]

2 completely different bikes 2 completely different situations and 2 bikes 30-40 years apart.

these bikes are not fuel injected, they where not built to abide by 2009 emission standards and they are from the factory built to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  With fuel injected bikes you don't need to worry about such things cause they can adapt.  A carburetor can not do that.   I did not say they where at absolute peak horsepower from the factory I said they squeezed the max power and torque to operate in a large range of temps and altitudes.  In other words they made them behave on the street for the average consumer.

Fantastic backpedal.

I'm not trying to argue here

For someone that's not trying, you're doing an awfully good job of it.

At no point did I disagree with you.  I did not change a single word.  Simply put by changing the stock setup you loose performance unless you compensate.  By compensating you loose performance in another condition whether temp, rain, altitude, whatever.  Honda spends a lot of money doing R&D and know a thing or two about street bike performance.  Why didn't they put pods on?  Why didn't they put a free flowing exhaust?  Cause both would run rich in one situation and lean in another.

It really sucks you take my posts so literal and critical that you are being aggressive about it... lighten up

[Laminar]

At no point did I disagree with you.  I did not change a single word.  Simply put by changing the stock setup you loose performance unless you compensate.  By compensating you loose performance in another condition whether temp, rain, altitude, whatever.  Honda spends a lot of money doing R&D and know a thing or two about street bike performance.  Why didn't they put pods on?  Why didn't they put a free flowing exhaust?  Cause both would run rich in one situation and lean in another.

It really sucks you take my posts so literal and critical that you are being aggressive about it... lighten up

One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.