Topic: Teachers getting paid to do nothing

[lynchj]

I'm not trying to start a war with teachers but this article is really interesting.
In a nutshell..... lots of teachers, hundreds of them, are getting paid full time with full vacation and benefits to literally do nothing. The "problem" is that there are not enough arbitrators to hear their cases (and they only work 5 days a week) so the arbitration cases in some instances go waiting to be heard for years.
 In my humble opinion that is not the real problem, the real problem is that these "professionals" are being protected by the unions and it's costing the tax payers huge amounts of money. It is totally rediculous, if they worked in the real world they would be fired in a heartbeat.
Ok.... I stirred the pot. Let the cooking begin.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5heYRW9pbqE-Ezt-lidTx-rGzP7IAD98VVBDG0

[Bob Wessner]

I believe you meant to say the arbitrators work only 5 days per month. Seems like that is the immediate problem. I wonder how much the arbitrators are paid.

[lynchj]

Yup, my bad. 5 days a month. Maybe the job as an arbitrator is just a part time job and they actutually have real jobs too, I don't know.

[medic09]

I'm a school teacher (former) from a family of teachers.  I'd say that is just crazy and wasteful.  They need to get serious and aggressive and clean off the slate.  Mind you, doesn't look like it is the teachers' fault.  Why penalize them for someone else's inefficiency?  They're waiting on due process; so speed up the process!

[JS550]

I think that's a pretty broad swipe you're taking. I'm a union firefighter & last fire I was in felt pretty real world to me? My wife, a union teacher, teaches in a real world at a real school. The problems are individuals in the system (& the world)& the system itself. And problems are not only on the union side of arbitration, administrations & management can cause problems too.
That said, I do agree, its complete B.S. that all those people are sitting on thier ass & getting paid.

[tramp]

speed up the process
don't penalize the teachers
if they did wrong let the system work

[patpollin]

even if you could get the teachers to teach year round it would be quite unhealthy to make students sit in school every week of the year. 

[Chester345]

Agree the system of each teacher getting due process should be fixed.

What amazes me is that they aren't allowed to do anything else accding to the union contract.  It's a fair bet some number near half of them won't get in trouble for anything in the end.  Why can't they be doing something constructive for the school system without children involved for this waiting time?

[Duke McDukiedook]

Stupid me, I thought arbitration and mediation was created to speed up the dispute process... 

[lynchj]

I think that's a pretty broad swipe you're taking. I'm a union firefighter & last fire I was in felt pretty real world to me? My wife, a union teacher, teaches in a real world at a real school. The problems are individuals in the system (& the world)& the system itself. And problems are not only on the union side of arbitration, administrations & management can cause problems too.
That said, I do agree, its complete B.S. that all those people are sitting on their ass & getting paid.

I'm sure the fires you fight are real (I'm a volunteer firefighter and have fought some very real fires) and that teachers are in real schools, what I'm referring to, and not very clear doing, is private sector vs public. In the private sector, non union, like myself, you have to justify your existence and fight for your pay, no one else is going to do that for you. If I were to violate company policy I would get fired, no arbitration, end of story, your out the door. I have worked as an engineer in several unionized plants (they are all closed now...hmmmmm). I consider myself a "professional" and have always had to speak for myself and have had to prove that I deserve pay raise in order to get one, by the way.... all salaried employees at our company have taken 7.5% pay cuts in order to prevent layoffs due to reductions in sales.

 In the town I live in the budgets have been frozen due to loss of revenue coming in. The teachers union was asked to freeze their pay (due to binding arbitration they are guaranteed raises every year regardless of performance). To make a long story short they voted it down and as a result 10% of the teachers were laid off, the bottom 10% based on seniority. I know several of the teachers who were laid off and in my humble opinion they were the better teachers by far. The union threw them under the bus to protect the older, more senior teachers and they voted knowing who would get laid off. This is what is wrong with unions, they do not account for talent, work ethic or performance, seniority is #1. I guess you could say I'm bitter and for good reason too.

 In the case of this article the union is protecting those who have violated policy and I'm paying my hard earned tax dollars to keep them sitting in the "rubber room" surfing the net while really good hard working teachers are getting laid off, this is criminal. Life in the public sector is way different than the private one. I'm sure that administrations and management are a big part of this problem after all it is government and they have never been known for efficiency.

 




 

[JS550]

I will agree that some worthless people get protected under unions. But there are also a lot of hard working people that covered by unions. Also, don't know about your state, but here in MI teachers in the public sector must be certified to teach. Where as in the private, they can get anyone they want to hire for the position. ( Not to say that some private sector teachers are under qualified) My wife spent a lot of time going to school to do her job & I believe she should get paid well for it. ( She doesnt though. ) Being here next to Detroit I've watched as the schools & city have been run into the ground, NOT by the unions, by the administrators & politicians. And I don't believe its unions that cause companies to go under, its mismanagement. I believe in fair pay for a job & why should the upper few people make a butt load & the workers get little? The government lets union jobs go out of country all the time & its NOT to save the co. its because they get kick backs from the killing that the co. makes when it goes. Unions are in place to get a fair shake, so you cant be fired for false accusations or so the formans son in law can have your position. It sucks that it also has to cover douchebags, but that's the way it works. You cant blame the union because arbitration takes so long. What about the ones that are sitting for false reasons? Should they be fired? No due process? I don't think the AIG bastards were union & a bunch of them are still running wall street into the ground? Why didn't they get fired? How about or #$%*ty government? They're non-union & their performance has sucked forever. And I hate to sound like I'm ragging on volly depts. but, if you wanna risk your neck & families future for little or nothing, more power to you.

[lynchj]

Great points made and well put too. I agree, there are a lot of very hard working people under unions and a lot of them are under paid for the work they do. A lot of good people benefit from the solidarity of a union.  No one system is perfect, there are serious flaws in all aspects of life and work, we just have to keep trying to make things better.
 Teaching is a very difficult job, one that I'm certainly not cut out for. It takes a special person to be a good teacher and they are worth their weight in gold. We have all had a few awesome teachers that have made huge impressions on our lives, my hat goes off to them. I've had and my kids also have had really bad teachers that basically take up time and space, this is unfortunate and no one system, unions or not, will stop that.  I believe that parents are the most important factor in a good education and unfortunately that is really lacking in our society.
 Not sure about your comment on volly depts, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, if it is referring to volunteer fire and ambulance I have a very strong opinion on that. I'm not doing it for little or nothing, I volunteer to help my family and community and to protect them. I'm on a dive rescue team and an EMT-I along with fire fighting. We don't get paid money but we get paid with thanks and the knowledge that we helped a neighbor in need, to me that's worth more than money. In small rural comunities we can't afford a paid emergency staff. One more thing....thank you for being a fire fighter, it's a brutal job and one that doesn't often get the respect that it deserves, especially in urban areas.
 

[JS550]

Good points you make also. Sorry I kinda got off on the wrong stretch there, after giving it more thought I guess the article & you were not so much attacking unions as the situation that the union is involved in. And that's great that you do what you do. Writing isn't always the best way to covey what is meant in a conversation.Things get taking outta context & read wrong. And being in such a big population I fail to think about the rural communities. Anyway, whats an EMT-I? We have EMT-Basic, specialist, & Paramedic here.

[lynchj]

I'm not always the best at conveying typed words into logical sentences.

EMT-I's can start IV's (once it's approved by the hospital) and do de-fibrillation. We meet the paramedic at the neighboring city line to start meds as required. Having a line started saves a lot of time for the paramedic. It's a nice mutual agreement.

I've spent a lot of time in Detroit / Dearborn area, calling on Ford, GM and Chrysler. Words can't do justice to the devastation out there from the economy. After 27 years I'm no longer in the automotive business, got laid off like everyone else but I'm now employed in a small privately owned company. Knock on wood.

[JS550]

That sounds like the equivalent of our Specs. they have talked about getting rid of that license & making it basic or medic, more national standard I guess. I hired on when you just needed basic so I stayed that, I made Sgt/Eng a few years back so I drive all the time now.