Author Topic: plz help TIMING messed it up.. (Read 5201 times)

stockscreamer · « **on:** June 23, 2009, 03:47:29 PM »

i could kick my self in the ass right now i set the points to the specified gap i believe its in the neighborhood of 3mm. so i moved on to trying to adjust timing and i think i have made it completely out of whack now the point for 1-4 is open and turns the test light on when on the F indicator but the point for 2-3 also turns on the test light when i havent moved the crank from the 1-4 F indicator is this normal?? i am pretty much clueless as to how to fix that and would love input if any is available. once again pretty much a dumbass when it comes to timing a motorcycle so i was wondering if a picture of somone elses properly (or close to properly) timed point and breaker plate that i can use as a baseline for mine?

stockscreamer · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2009, 03:50:49 PM »

forgot to mention it wont really start at the moment due to the timing issue hence me asking for a baseline to work off of almost any input would be GREAT.. well of to tinker with the damn thing

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2009, 03:53:20 PM »

It's hard to know how you are going about the timing, but keep in mind these motors use a wasted spark. That is, when 1-4 has the valves closed and firing, 2-3 are on the exhaust stroke and are also firing.. ignition-wise.

stockscreamer · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2009, 03:58:30 PM »

ok that helped with that side of my itchy head ha is there any way i can just set the timing plates as close as possible to a picture of someones running cb750 to get me in the ball park or at least running? sorry for the ignorance i can handle doing pretty much everything else on the bike maintenance wise but this is a first for timing on a moto thx for the fast ass reply lol

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:03:24 PM »

Have you a manual? Best thing is to follow the procedure for setting the timing. What else have you done to it? For example, the cam chain should be adjusted, if necessary, before attempting the timing.

1timduke · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:05:49 PM »

Quote from: stockscreamer on June 23, 2009, 03:47:29 PM

i could kick my self in the ass right now i set the points to the specified gap i believe its in the neighborhood of 3mm.

You mean .3mm, right?

mystic_1 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:06:15 PM »

Quote from: Bob Wessner on June 23, 2009, 03:53:20 PM

when 1-4 has the valves closed and firing, 2-3 are on the exhaust stroke and are also firing.. ignition-wise.

Er, don't think that's quite right. Spark occurs when pistons are just before Top Dead Center. When 1 and 4 are at TDC, 2 and 3 are at BDC. Spark on 2-3 occurs 180 degrees from spark on 1-4.

Stockscreamer, What sort of test light are you using? Is it self-powered? How is it hooked up, and does it turn on when the points open or does it turn off when the points open? This makes a difference in interpreting your results.

It sounds like you are using a passive light hooked between the points lead and ground. This will turn on when the points open.

I may be wrong but I think that at the moment that the 1-4 points open, the 2-3 points are still open from the last ignition cycle.

I'd suggest continuing with the timing procedure. Rotate the crankshaft forward. The test light on the 2-3 points should turn off and then turn on just as you reach the F2-3 mark.

mystic_1

stockscreamer · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:17:32 PM »

sorry for the confusion correct .03mm*
i have adjusted the cam tensioner 15 degrees after tdc correct right?
its just a regular old test light grounded to the block when it touchs the connection and completes the circuit the light turns on.

mrbreeze · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:44:02 PM »

Quote from: mystic_1 on June 23, 2009, 04:06:15 PM

Quote from: Bob Wessner on June 23, 2009, 03:53:20 PM
when 1-4 has the valves closed and firing, 2-3 are on the exhaust stroke and are also firing.. ignition-wise.

Er, don't think that's quite right. Spark occurs when pistons are just before Top Dead Center. When 1 and 4 are at TDC, 2 and 3 are at BDC. Spark on 2-3 occurs 180 degrees from spark on 1-4.

Stockscreamer, What sort of test light are you using? Is it self-powered? How is it hooked up, and does it turn on when the points open or does it turn off when the points open? This makes a difference in interpreting your results.

It sounds like you are using a passive light hooked between the points lead and ground. This will turn on when the points open.

I may be wrong but I think that at the moment that the 1-4 points open, the 2-3 points are still open from the last ignition cycle.

I'd suggest continuing with the timing procedure. Rotate the crankshaft forward. The test light on the 2-3 points should turn off and then turn on just as you reach the F2-3 mark.

mystic_1

Yeah Mystic......I caught that too.Bob.......ya gonna confuse the newbies!!!!!

1 and 4 will fire together as will 2 and 3 180 degrees later. 1 and 4 are on one coil....2 and 3 are on the other. Say #1 fires on the power stroke. #4 is also firing but on the exhaust stroke......therefore "waste" spark.

stockscreamer · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:05:00 PM »

oooo ok good info to know thanks.
ok, went out turned the crank slowly with the test light attached to the 1-4 point and it lights up before the F indicator it starts lighting up at or at least close the two notchs before it shows the 1-4 F notch normal? and i cant adjust the plate far enough to compensate and make the light turn on directly at the F indicator

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:26:44 PM »

Quote from: mrbreeze on June 23, 2009, 04:44:02 PM

Quote from: mystic_1 on June 23, 2009, 04:06:15 PM
Quote from: Bob Wessner on June 23, 2009, 03:53:20 PM
when 1-4 has the valves closed and firing, 2-3 are on the exhaust stroke and are also firing.. ignition-wise.

Er, don't think that's quite right. Spark occurs when pistons are just before Top Dead Center. When 1 and 4 are at TDC, 2 and 3 are at BDC. Spark on 2-3 occurs 180 degrees from spark on 1-4.

Stockscreamer, What sort of test light are you using? Is it self-powered? How is it hooked up, and does it turn on when the points open or does it turn off when the points open? This makes a difference in interpreting your results.

It sounds like you are using a passive light hooked between the points lead and ground. This will turn on when the points open.

I may be wrong but I think that at the moment that the 1-4 points open, the 2-3 points are still open from the last ignition cycle.

I'd suggest continuing with the timing procedure. Rotate the crankshaft forward. The test light on the 2-3 points should turn off and then turn on just as you reach the F2-3 mark.

mystic_1
Yeah Mystic......I caught that too.Bob.......ya gonna confuse the newbies!!!!! 1 and 4 will fire together as will 2 and 3 180 degrees later. 1 and 4 are on one coil....2 and 3 are on the other. Say #1 fires on the power stroke. #4 is also firing but on the exhaust stroke......therefore "waste" spark.

Ooops, my bad.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:32:13 PM »

Quote from: stockscreamer on June 23, 2009, 05:05:00 PM

oooo ok good info to know thanks.
ok, went out turned the crank slowly with the test light attached to the 1-4 point and it lights up before the F indicator it starts lighting up at or at least close the two notchs before it shows the 1-4 F notch normal? and i cant adjust the plate far enough to compensate and make the light turn on directly at the F indicator

Hmm, if your advancer was stuck at full advance you'd get symptoms like that. Check to see that the advancer mechanism is moving freely.

Also, tell us more about how you set the points gap, you need to do this when the advancer cam has the points fully open.

mystic_1

mrbreeze · « **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2009, 08:01:06 PM »

You should be able to move the whole plate.Then move the individual points to get it to line up.When your test light lights....the timing mark should line up.Then when you go around again....it should line up for the other 2. This is called static timing. This should get ya close enough to run the engine and dynamic time it with a timing light. Hell......its been quite some time since I've used a timing light.I am an auto mechanic in California. Not a whole lot rolls into our shop that has a distributor or especially points ignition and I went electronic on my bike at least more than 5 years ago.However...I am an old timer and still own a few timing lights and dwell meters. If you can afford to go electronic........I advise it by all means.You WILL notice the difference for sure and may never have to take the points cover off of your engine again!!!! Hope it all turns out golden for ya!!

HondaMan · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2009, 05:35:53 AM »

Setting points:
1. Turn the crank until the full advance marks for 1-4 show in the window, and set the 1-4 set's gap to .014" (if you do it metrically, use 0.35mm).
2. Now rotate the crank forward (to your right) while your timing light is connected to those points: the light will go out, then it must come on again when the 1-4 "F" mark appears. If it is off, turn the baseplate until this lines up. A word of note: the gap may change when you loosen that baseplate, so check the gap again after you adjust the plate. In the end, it must be more than .012" and less than .016". Usually .014" is just right.
3. Turn the crank until the full advance marks for 2-3 show in the window, and set the 2-3 set's gap to .014".
4. Now rotate the crank forward (to your right) while your timing light is connected to those points: the light will go out, then it must come on again when the 2-3 "F" mark appears. If it is off, turn the sub-baseplate until this lines up. Another word of note: the gap may change when you loosen that sub-baseplate, so check the gap again after you adjust the plate.

After all is done, check with a timing light. Sometimes the test light method is off little.

stockscreamer · « **Reply #14 on:** September 14, 2012, 07:41:37 PM »

Sorry for the almost 2 years since a reply, but thank all of you old timers (if you dont mind me saying) Your info was spot on and i have had a happy couple thousand miles riding since then!

Now i have a bit different question as for the spark advancer, ive read that the earlier style cb K0's had 41 degree full advance, 5 degree idle. I was wondering if these earlier spark advance units work correctly with a K5? Which is rated at 35 degrees full advance, 7 degree idle.. Or if are they even available to make a choice?
Again thanks for all the help and i promise i wont let a post get this stagnent again.

Josh
G'day

bollingball · « **Reply #15 on:** September 14, 2012, 08:15:32 PM »

How about over 3

Ken

stockscreamer · « **Reply #16 on:** September 14, 2012, 09:29:45 PM »

I used to log onto here from my cellular device and never knew how to view previous posts. After re-stumbling upon this site a couple months ago, i finally found the quicklink right at the top which led me to this old post.

Wowzers older than i thought, Time flys when you live in Vegas.

Josh

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2012, 12:43:31 PM »

3 yr. old thread, quick where's Lucky, somebody find Lucky he loooves 2/3/4 yr. old threads

lucky · « **Reply #18 on:** September 16, 2012, 11:55:31 AM »

Quote from: stockscreamer on June 23, 2009, 03:47:29 PM

i could kick my self in the ass right now i set the points to the specified gap i believe its in the neighborhood of 3mm. so i moved on to trying to adjust timing and i think i have made it completely out of whack now the point for 1-4 is open and turns the test light on when on the F indicator but the point for 2-3 also turns on the test light when i havent moved the crank from the 1-4 F indicator is this normal?? i am pretty much clueless as to how to fix that and would love input if any is available. once again pretty much a dumbass when it comes to timing a motorcycle so i was wondering if a picture of somone elses properly (or close to properly) timed point and breaker plate that i can use as a baseline for mine?

3mm = .118 thousandths. No wonder it will not run. .125 is 1/8 inch!

It needs to be .012 thousandths gap on a new set of points.
If the points are pitted on the contacts it will be very difficult to set them without a dwell meter and it will take much longer for that trial and error process.

stockscreamer · « **Reply #19 on:** September 16, 2012, 06:24:28 PM »

Thanks Lucky but ive had her running great since Hondaman jumped in. The original reason i played with the timing is because my ex- step dad had re-jetted for pods (with wayy too big of jets) and in the process of this he bent just about every float.. when we got it back it ran but not too well so i messed with the timing and got it out of whack after setting the timing correctly to Hondamans specs it still ran like sheet. So i checked plugs to find that they were HELLA carbon fouled on all four, so i ripped the carbs off dismanteled them completely took them to my shop and cleaned them in the solvent tank for a work day. Found 135 mains installed in them took them out dropped in 125's, found that all the floats were out of whack real bad bent them all back true and set to 26mm, checked needle positions (the only thing he did right) buttoned them back up threw the rack on the bike with new champ plugs, Fired right up did a few plug chops with great results never had a problem since (aprox. 2000 miles) later here i am still running great.

Moral of this story dont give your payment to the person doing the work before its complete especially when the payments beer.

Josh

dave500 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 17, 2012, 02:03:04 AM »

loose the champion plugs,their heat ranges dont line up with ngk or denso.

trueblue · « **Reply #21 on:** September 17, 2012, 03:47:20 AM »

Quote from: dave500 on September 17, 2012, 02:03:04 AM

loose the champion plugs,their heat ranges dont line up with ngk or denso.

Not to mention they like to drop the centre electrode out with scary regularity. Porcelain bouncing around in an engine at high RPM makes quite a mess.

bollingball · « **Reply #22 on:** September 17, 2012, 04:53:56 AM »

Quote from: lucky on September 16, 2012, 11:55:31 AM

Quote from: stockscreamer on June 23, 2009, 03:47:29 PM
i could kick my self in the ass right now i set the points to the specified gap i believe its in the neighborhood of 3mm. so i moved on to trying to adjust timing and i think i have made it completely out of whack now the point for 1-4 is open and turns the test light on when on the F indicator but the point for 2-3 also turns on the test light when i havent moved the crank from the 1-4 F indicator is this normal?? i am pretty much clueless as to how to fix that and would love input if any is available. once again pretty much a dumbass when it comes to timing a motorcycle so i was wondering if a picture of somone elses properly (or close to properly) timed point and breaker plate that i can use as a baseline for mine?

3mm = .118 thousandths. No wonder it will not run. .125 is 1/8 inch!

It needs to be .012 thousandths gap on a new set of points.If the points are pitted on the contacts it will be very difficult to set them without a dwell meter and it will take much longer for that trial and error process.

Lucky Why set the points at .012?? I have allways set at .014. Then I read the dwell and set 2-3 to match. After this if I check the gap on 2-3 low and behold it is on .014 Is there a reason you go with .012 ? Just curious. I have never worked on these bikes at a dealership like you. Are you building in a wear factor? I'm thinking that is why you said " new set of points"
Anyone else have something to say about this?
Ken

stockscreamer · « **Reply #23 on:** September 17, 2012, 07:58:50 AM »

I only had them in to resist fouling while doing plug chops. I always run NGK's for normal use, i like to know they match my plug caps

are the problems you described with champ plugs only pertain to motorcycle plugs or should i avoid this brand all together? Its almost the only brand ive ever used in many cars/trucks/suvs during tune-ups with no problems to date..

trueblue · « **Reply #24 on:** September 18, 2012, 01:30:16 AM »

I have seen problems with champion plugs across the board, I don't use them at all anymore.

dave500 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 18, 2012, 02:08:22 AM »

theyre not like champions anymore,,they should change the name to something like runners up?

stockscreamer · « **Reply #26 on:** September 18, 2012, 07:52:19 PM »

hmm strange

So since i seem to like most of everyones advice on this forum, are there any particular brands yall stick to? not for just our Hondas just in general.. dont say the 10$ a piece "tri fire" plugs, spark plugs send ONE spark I highly doubt having 3 different paths for that one spark to choose between makes any difference..

dave500 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 18, 2012, 10:27:35 PM »

ngk and denso,i use them both and think they are equal,bosch seem to be colder for the heat range aswell,they should stick to alternators, starter motors and ignition modules they make excellent ones!

stockscreamer · « **Reply #28 on:** September 18, 2012, 11:24:37 PM »

Good to know, Ive always heard good things about denso i think ill try em out on my 94 f-150 for its 200,000 mile over-haul. Bosch makes quite a few nice products strange that they would skimp out on spark plugs..

dave500 · « **Reply #29 on:** September 19, 2012, 12:21:16 AM »

i doubt they skimp,bosch plugs would be ok say one hotter for the number,i have a few two stroke petrol yard tools and bought half a dozen densos,they all take the same plug,my uncle bought a no name chain saw with a no name plug in it,,he couldnt start the thing only from lack of experience,he brought it to my place and i fired it up within four or five pulls,i was looking at the plug and the centre electrode was way out of centre and leaning to one side,i told him to buy a plug with a name on it,he got a champion from the hardware store,itll be better than the no name one by far!

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Author Topic: plz help TIMING messed it up.. (Read 5201 times)

bollingball

bollingball