Topic: With love from PO, would you weld it, braze or stick it in a stew??

[manjisann]

I just knocked the old bearing race out, grr buggered that a bit, but nothing major. Cleaned it and took measurements.

Inside diameter: 1.960 inches
Outside diameter: 2.225 inches
Thickness: .125 inches.

The tube diameters seem a bit weird, but whatever. I think I will just try and find a tube that is a 2" inner diameter and then just work it to fit around the old races. This should be a character building experience 

Brandon

[hapakev]

Im pretty sure that aluminum turns liquidious (melts) before bronze.  When brazing aluminum you have to be very careful because the temp the stick melts at is close to the temp the pipe melts at.  Check what temp you are going to be welding at, copper/bronze is like 1750 I think. 

[manjisann]

Im pretty sure that aluminum turns liquidious (melts) before bronze.  When brazing aluminum you have to be very careful because the temp the stick melts at is close to the temp the pipe melts at.  Check what temp you are going to be welding at, copper/bronze is like 1750 I think.

I know brazing takes place at approx 1700 F and welding is accomplished at approx 2900 F.

Went to the local steel yard but they didn't have any tubing, just pipe and it was the wrong dimensions. I did however pick up 45 lbs of scrap steel to practice welding on for dirt cheap, and some of it was 1/8" flat stock, so I may be able to effect the repairs using that and just heating and bending it to fit.

Brandon

[Don R]

Just so I know, what race car frames are brazed together?

[razor02097]

aluminum requires a lot of heat... I know that... the hard way 

[hapakev]

you know, now that I have thought about it.  The hardness of the aluminum would probably have a great affect on the heat it takes to melt it, so just ignore me 

[Hush]

Brandon, just looking at that photo the other forum member put up, is the steering stop lock missing off your steering head?
It might explain why that hole is where it is....just a thought.

[manjisann]

Just so I know, what race car frames are brazed together?

Matchbox   Ok, totally kidding. Honestly, I get this bit of info from "Performance Welding Handbook" 2nd edition, by Richard Finch. Page 126 (not that I expect anyone to buy the book, but I found it informative   ) He has a pic of some race car frames and the caption reads " The LeGrand Formula Ford race car factory brazed these mild steel-tubing Formula Ford frames because brazing is a stronger and faster fabrication method than fusion welding" He also has other photos in there of projects he's done where he brazed frames together for various race cars, but the above should be easier to google if anyone wishes too.

Please correct me if I am wrong but fusion welding is where you are melting the two pieces together and adding a filler metal as well (ie arc,mig,tig?)

aluminum requires a lot of heat... I know that... the hard way  

I have yet to try welding or brazing aluminum, although I'll get around to it some day just to learn how too.

I probably won't get around to fixing this till monday or tuesday of next week. I managed to pick up a cold from somewhere (friggin lame, a cold in summer) and it's keeping me pretty tired. I want to be feeling better before I start doing anything on the frame like this. Besides, I still have to get the rear end off so I can flip the frame over to get to this area.

Brandon

[manjisann]

Brandon, just looking at that photo the other forum member put up, is the steering stop lock missing off your steering head?
It might explain why that hole is where it is....just a thought.

I don't think so, I believe the steering locks up top, as it is done via the ignition cylinder. You turn the key to lock and a bolt comes out of the cylinder and engages a funny looking piece of metal up top. You had me all excited for a moment though  I definately think this was from the fork stop (so you can turn your forks too far to either side.)  Looking at some of the photos others have posted of that fork stop piece though, the hole I have seems really small in comparison to the chunk of metal that comprises those stops, that has me a bit puzzled.  The first guy to try and post a pic of his fork stops was another 650 owner, but I couldn't really make out the sizing of it.

Brandon

[manjisann]

Ok, just went and looked again, it was Razor who posted the pic, thanks man. Dude, love the kitten in the helmet BTW!

Even his, from what I can make of it looks wider than the hole in my tube does.

Brandon

[razor02097]

thanks man thats was my cat when he was 3 weeks old 


My bike is an 80 650 but not a "C" model so I don't know if yours might be different... you won't know for sure until you clean the head to bare metal and see if there is scarring.

[754]

I revised my last post, on page2..

 forget trying to find a replacement piece in a scrapyard, you will have to either bend it or machine one(then cut a piece out)

 We  tried to help with simple DIY methods that will keep the hole round...........

[bryanj]

Steering Lock as in stopping the bars hit the tank not as in stopping the forks turning and yes that is what is missing, probably knocked off in an accident somewhere

[Hush]

Yeah now you talking Bryan, that would mean someone had a big off at some time but also might make Brandon's problem smaller as it is almost going to be acceptable to have a big hunk of extra metal hanging out there in the middle of the triple.

[Joksa]

From the frame number this is the 650?

I would shape up a new steering stop from thicker material and have it welded over the hole and then just file out the inner part where the weld is.

With a set of taper bearings you will have 95% support for the race on original bore and in my honest opinion for the power the 650 puts out that is way more than adequate

I'd consider putting a new race in place before welding or brazing the new stop.

Speaking of brazing. I found this video from dotheton forums:

http://www.jwmotorcycles.com/classic-motorcycle-frames.html

[Hush]

Was that "how to make an anchor"?
Shows how tough that join is though.

[oldbiker]

Hi Manjisann,  I would clean up the surface, cut a piece from 1/4" mild steel as the sketch attached and securely BRAZE it in place over the gap. When it is all cooled and cleaned, use a hacksaw to cut in roughly as shown by the arrows and remove the end bits to form the steering stops.
This way, I don't think you will have any trouble fitting your new bearings and the job will be plenty strong enough.

[Lars]

Hmm, and how much would a another used frame with a title cost you?

[754]

Joksa, that may take the hardening out of the race..plus you dont want to take a chance of welding in the race.. something soft you can grind out if it does weld, is safer.

 I think some of you are not understanding....

 If you are not near round, the steering, may always be affected, and it for sure will not handle any better with a  lump in it.
 
 The race will not straighten an egged hole, one of the only chances you have to keep the hole round is to use a hefty, mostly solid plug, that....or more expense of machining.. or an egged hole.

 Machining cant reround the hole, without adding a layer of weld, but it can take out a tight spot, and it can bore oversize, to allow sleeving, if you have enough meat

 Brazing definitly has its uses, but mixing a mig welded assembly & brazing.. .. this application, is the LAST place in the world, I would be trying it.

[manjisann]

I can't find a pipe or tube that is the correct diameter, the only thing I can figure is it must have been machined. That being said, I have the old races that I pulled, I am thinking if I put them in a vice and use them to form the 1/8 bar stock around, that should give me the size I need to fit the little hole. Really the whole purpose of this exercise is to plug that hole. I see no indication of stress around the hole to indicate that it has caused any sort of fatigue to the frame. I will know more once I remove the paint and really dig into it.

I was thinking last nigh, how do you think they attached these larger diameter tubes to the steering tube? I don't see any weld joints, or else they grinded them off. Either way, I really don't think that welding or brazing a small area is going to weaken it enough to cause a problem. My moms neighbor who supposedly knows how to weld (I am just saying supposedly be cause I have no idea what his true certs are, but he has demonstrated he knows a lot more than I do) suggested doing a series of spot/tack welds. Do a 2 second burn, let it cool, and just keep doing that, just like you would on sheet metal. He believes this will minimize warping. I am still not convinced that welding is the way to go. I am thinking we'll do a test, try a weld and a braze on some scrap metal of same thickness, let it cool, and then try and fatigue the hell out of them and see what happens.

As far as keeping it round, if we are careful it shouldn't get too out of round and what little it does I should be able to take care of with a Dremel and some very careful and calculated grinding. I still believe the whole purpose of this area is to help keep the bearings in the races and keep dirt out. A little out of roundness shouldn't affect this.

After I have done this, I will keep an eye on this area and see if I start to see any signs of cracking, if I do I'll know it was a failure.

As for getting a different titled frame, where would I find one in Utah?

Brandon

[754]

You are not understanding what you are holding..
 Frame necks are not cut off tubing and they fit, they are welded together pieces, THEN MACHINED..

 because welding makes things, OUT OF ROUND

 So if you use a solid plug, form a piece, then weld it, hopefully this will happen...

 It will get really freaking HOT, RED HOT, while welding.. its not a gas tank fender, or guage cover, its a frame..
 you want it, to get so HOT (near melting) that the shrinking of the welds (pulls it tight)and the  the thinness and near plastic state of the patch (red hot), pulls itself against the SOLID UNYIELDING plug.. so that when it cools, it will be very near round....

 But of course if you want to mix weld methods, or think a  little out of round can be fixed with a grinder, or maybe a little bit of loose is good for a front end, continue on, you surely dont need any of our advice...

 yeah practicing on a frame is a great idea...

[manjisann]

I suppose it is foolish for me to ask for advice from members who know more than I do and then just dismiss it because it doesn't jive with what I want.

I got a Plan..

 Machine a piece of solid bar,, same size as race or .002 smaller.. length at least from where race seats to be flush with end of neck, Now where you think the weld will be on the patch drill a 3/16 hole in these 2 spots, leaving around 1/8 material toward outside edge.

 Now form your patch (mild steel), a curve & trim to fit, bevel the weld edges, then weld. When it cools,  drill out the 2 holes till they break thru the edge of solid slug, even if the weld penetrated. NOW, you can DRIVE out the slug and the hole will be very round.. might need tiny touchup on root of weld.

 Clean it up & you are done..

 754..

I believe I understand the purpose of the plug, it is to keep the hole round while I weld? Can you please explain what the purpose of drilling the holes is and where they are being drilled? I am sorry, I am trying to understand this part.

It was suggested that if the plug was made of aluminum it would be better as the metal and aluminum wouldn't melt together. Since aluminum melts at half the temp of steel, would this prevent a problem in that the plug might distort?

The current idea that the neighbor thinks would be best is doing a series of spot welds. We could fit a small piece in the gap to keep it round. Your plug idea would give us something to clamp it against and ensure it's roundness. This would be the blue lines (sorry, they aren't exact just an idea.) Then place the patch over it (the red lines). There would obviously be some grinding on the outside involved, but this is the basic idea.

I'm gonna call around and see what a plug and maybe a reinforcing band would cost to have made.

Brandon

[754]

When I posted that, I  came up with it at the spur of the moment.

The function of the holes..

After you weld, there is a  good chance  you will weld to the plug. If there is a hole already located near that area, you can easily drill the hole, in steps. , going bigger till you reach the outside of plug/weld area and break thru .. now you will be able to remove the plug, that was welded to your repair..

 Aluminum will avoid the welding together, but will expand more than steel, will probably work..

 I would just form the patch piece close as you can to the race, or plug

[manjisann]

754, thank you for the expanded explanation.

After doing some calling around to machine shops and other places and talking to them I've decided I'd better just get a different frame. Several of the people I talked to were motorcycle riders who have fabricated their own frames and they agreed with several people on this forum that it is really risky to weld in this area. I guess it just took me a few days to come to terms with this  . Thank you to everyone who responded, it is very much appreciated!

Brandon